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166 lines
11 KiB
Markdown
166 lines
11 KiB
Markdown
---
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layout: post
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title: Logs for the MRL Meeting Held on 2020-02-19
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tags: [dev diaries, crypto, research]
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author: asymptotically / Sarang
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---
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# Logs
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**\<sarang\>** OK, let's get started with the meeting
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**\<sarang\>** GREETINGS
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**\<sgp\_\>** hello :)
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**\<n3ptune\>** Hello
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**\<needmonero90\>** I caught the meeting!
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**\<needmonero90\>** I would like to note that the meetings are not listed in the calendar
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**\<needmonero90\>** idk if thats intentional
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**\<sarang\>** Which calendar?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Hi
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**\<sarang\>** And how are meetings applied to it?
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**\<ArticMine\>** Hi
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**\<sarang\>** Meeting times/agendas are always listed as meta repo github issues
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**\<sarang\>** Anyway, does anyone wish to begin the ROUNDTABLE with research topics of interest?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Yes
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**\<sarang\>** Take it away UkoeHB\_
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** I finished designing an escrowed marketplace 'protocol' which hopefully solves issues encountered by rbrunner in his openbazaar integration analysis. Also, multisig and txtangle have been finalized.
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** https://www.pdf-archive.com/2020/02/19/zerotomoneromaster-v1-0-28/zerotomoneromaster-v1-0-28.pdf
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**\<sarang\>** Neat
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Finally, I had an idea for reducing minimum fee variability, and likewise for putting antispam directly in the protocol instead of relying on minimum fee
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**\<sarang\>** Are you seeking analysis on those?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Which is issue #70
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** They are open for comments any time anywhere
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Ah and sarang provided a draft for a tx knowledge proof chapter
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**\<sarang\>** aye
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** (not really my research :p)
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**\<sarang\>** Heh, it's more of a summary of what's in the codebase (and some changes)
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**\<sarang\>** I look forward to reading the update draft you linked
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** A number of topics here are lonely and want attention btw https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** \end
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**\<sarang\>** Thanks UkoeHB\_
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**\<sarang\>** Any questions or comments on those topics from anyone?
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**\<ArticMine\>** Yes
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**\<sarang\>** Please go ahead!
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**\<ArticMine\>** I have taken a look at issue 70
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**\<ArticMine\>** It actually has serious implications
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**\<ArticMine\>** When the LT medium increases substantially
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**\<ArticMine\>** I do have an idea for a solution
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**\<ArticMine\>** Very preliminary at this stage
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**\<ArticMine\>** As for an interim fix
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**\<ArticMine\>** The est is to pay the high or at least normal fee for escrows that are expected to last past the next hard fork
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**\<ArticMine\>** I will have comments on the issue in the next two weeks
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**\<ArticMine\>** end
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**\<sarang\>** Thanks ArticMine
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**\<sarang\>** Any other questions/comments from the topics presented by UkoeHB\_?
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**\<sarang\>** Righto
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**\<sarang\>** I'll share a few things
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**\<sarang\>** First, the Stanford Blockchain Conference is happening right now (and the next couple of days), and has streaming available: https://cbr.stanford.edu/sbc20/
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**\<sarang\>** Second, I did some math/code related to multiparty stuff for next-gen protocols
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**\<sarang\>** Third, I worked on code and write-ups for transaction proofs, both for an updated PR and for inclusion in Zero to Monero for better documentation
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**\<sarang\>** Fourth, I used chain data from n3ptune and friends to do better estimates of the cumulative effects of next-gen protocols
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**\<sarang\>** both in chain growth and verification time
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**\<sarang\>** Major caveat: these assume the same input/output distribution as the current chain, and are \_estimates\_only\_
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**\<sarang\>** and apply to post-bulletproof chain data only
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**\<sarang\>** https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ijaEAI7m/size.png
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**\<sarang\>** ^ this link shows the total chain growth estimates for various protocols with varying ring size
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**\<sarang\>** namely, from 16 to 1024 in powers of 2 (lines for visual aid only)
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Sarang would you mind adding an indicator for MLSAG and CLSAG at the 11 ring size 'point'? For reference
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**\<sarang\>** Sure, let me grab that data from my spreadsheet
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**\<sarang\>** hold please
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Or the super steep slope from 11 to 20 lol that goes off that chart
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**\<sarang\>** Heh, I had that data but didn't include it since it's crazy linear
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**\<sarang\>** I'm running the N=11 code for MLSAG/CLSAG, which I don't have handy
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**\<sarang\>** Anyway, I'll pull up the time data while we wait
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**\<sarang\>** https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/T7uWoFEp/time.png
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**\<sarang\>** ^ verification time estimate for \_group\_operations\_only\_ at varying ring sizes
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** I think it's interesting that all these protocols/signature schemes are similar size on the small end
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**\<sarang\>** All the verification times are linear (up to a logarithmic term due to multiexp)
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Where is tryptich multi hiding?
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**\<sarang\>** It's underneath Triptych-single
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**\<sarang\>** They're essentially indistinguishable
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**\<selsta\>** Does Triptych single have advantages over multi?
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**\<sarang\>** RCT3-multi suffers due to input padding requirements that still have a linear verification effect
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**\<sarang\>** selsta: a complete soundness proof :)
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**\<sarang\>** Update on MLSAG/CLSAG size estimates...
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Could you make a smaller graph from 0 to 128 ring size? Since those large ones seem pretty unreasonable
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**\<sarang\>** At N=11, MLSAG for that chain range is 7.84 GB, while CLSAG is 5.84 GB
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**\<sarang\>** (the actual size of that chain range is 7.9 GB)
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**\<sarang\>** https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DFhClmEe/time-small.png
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**\<sarang\>** ^ same time data, zoomed in
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Perfect thanks :) are time estimates for CLSAG/MLSAG available?
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**\<sarang\>** Heh, just writing that out
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**\<sarang\>** I have very early estimates on that, which are tricky since multiexp doesn't apply, and hashing is nontrivial
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**\<sarang\>** MLSAG N=11 estimate is 29.9 hours for that chain range (but I have \_not\_ double-checked it)
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**\<ArticMine\>** What hardware was used for the verification time calculations?
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**\<sarang\>** It's a single core on a 2.1 GHz Opteron machine, with a bonkers amount of RAM
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**\<sarang\>** I would rely on the timing data only for comparisons, not absolute values
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**\<ArticMine\>** age of CPU?
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**\<sarang\>** I am still in the process of getting CLSAG data, which requires additional test code
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**\<sarang\>** It's a gen-3 Opteron, if that's what you mean
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Is there a way others could run the same tests?
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**\<sarang\>** Again, only estimates using performance test code
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**\<sarang\>** For next-gen protocols, it's quite easy
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**\<ArticMine\>** Yes great it does give an idea thanks
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**\<sarang\>** Well, somewhat easy
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**\<sarang\>** You need to get multiexp performance timing data and use a linear interpolation that you plug into the simulator
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**\<sarang\>** For MSLAG/CLSAG you need to run more operation performance data
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**\<sarang\>** This is the simulator, which is still WIP: https://github.com/SarangNoether/skunkworks/blob/sublinear/estimate.py
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**\<Isthmus\>** https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/HuPcfLdT/image.png
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**\<sarang\>** But again, it's tricky to do comparisons between MLSAG/CLSAG and the next-gens
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**\<Isthmus\>** (drive by data)
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**\<sarang\>** Wow, that's quite low
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**\<Isthmus\>** Oh yeah, the numbers are one thing. But moreso, we should all be more alarmed that analyzing something like this is possible for an outside observer
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**\<Isthmus\>** ;-)
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**\<sarang\>** Yep, and has certainly been a topic of interest!
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**\<Isthmus\>** It's a privacy risk to use subaddresses right now...
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**\<Isthmus\>** Anyways, I gotta bounce, sorry to spam n run
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**\<sarang\>** OK thanks for sharing the data Isthmus
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**\<sarang\>** Another good reminder that I/O structure reveals some information about subaddress use
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**\<sarang\>** Since Isthmus had to leave, were there other questions/comments on the data that I shared above?
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**\<sarang\>** UkoeHB\_: if you want to run tests as well, let me know after the meeting and I can let you know how to get the numbers you'll need
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** My computer is quite weak, was just asking for viewers :)
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**\<sgp\_\>** sarang: can you remind us on the plans to fix this subaddress thing?
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**\<sarang\>** ah ok
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**\<sarang\>** Requiring separate tx keys per output is a good idea, but IIRC didn't have a huge amount of support when last brought up
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**\<sarang\>** FWIW the size data that I presented for next-gens assumes a separate tx key per output
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Is that necessary for the protocols?
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**\<sarang\>** For the proving systems, you mean? No, not at all
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**\<sarang\>** They don't care how you get signing keys
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Can you estimate the amount of additional pub key data? Num outs \* 32 and num tx \* 32?
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**\<sgp\_\>** sarang: why did it not get support now? complexity? size? verification time?
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**\<sarang\>** My numbers for MLSAG/CLSAG include separate tx keys too!
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**\<sarang\>** Also: n3ptune's dataset includes the pubkey counts
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**\<sarang\>** So I could run that separately for a more direct count
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** With only 3% subaddress adoption, the difference is likely on the order of 100MB
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Or 2% of total size I think
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**\<sarang\>** that's probably a good order-of-magnitude estimate
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**\<sarang\>** But IIRC scanning requires checking all pubkeys
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**\<sarang\>** So either there needs to be a specified correlation, or there's added complexity in scanning
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** I think it costs ~1GB for 30mill pub keys btw
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**\<sarang\>** I think moneromooo had a better idea of the impacts, when it was brought up earlier
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**\<sarang\>** FWIW I think it's a good idea unless it's very compelling not to due to complexity
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**\<sarang\>** OK, we're running up to the one-hour mark...
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**\<sgp\_\>** obviously without this change, the impacts are quite negative for network privacy........
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**\<sarang\>** It's differentiated data, but it doesn't leak \_which\_ outputs are subaddress-destined
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**\<sarang\>** (not that I'm saying that's a good reason to keep the current approach)
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** It's quite a lot of unused data, I'm a bit skeptical
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**\<sgp\_\>** just reveals "one of this outputs goes to a subaddres?"
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**\<sarang\>** UkoeHB\_:?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** A lot of dummy data
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**\<sarang\>** sgp\_: it reveals the number of subaddress outputs
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** sarang all it reveals is at least one of the outputs must be to a subaddress
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**\<sarang\>** Doesn't it reveal the total number of sub outs?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** No
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**\<sarang\>** orly
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** How would it?
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Number of additional pub keys always equals number of outs
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** Even if nonsubaddress
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**\<UkoeHB\_\>** How is the CLSAG paper going?
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**\<sarang\>** Hmm, for some reason I thought otherwise; noted
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**\<sarang\>** I'm still waiting for suraeNoether
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**\<sarang\>** He wanted to continue working on his ideas for the security model
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**\<sarang\>** So unfortunately I am not the one to ask
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**\<sarang\>** OK, is there anything else of interest to share?
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**\<sarang\>** (Would be a good idea to continue discussing this after meeting, or on an issue, to keep it alive)
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**\<sgp\_\>** definitely need an issue for it
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**\<sarang\>** All righty then; thanks to everyone for attending today
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**\<sarang\>** We are adjourned!
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