Logs

<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/297
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support. Stay up to date with the latest events by subscribing to this calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<rehrar> ye
<msvb-mob> Hello.
<ErCiccione> Hi
<serhack> Hi!
<fordoes> Hi.
<_Slack> <sean> Hey
<oneiric_> hithere
<EBENisLegit> hi
<nevvton[m]> howd¥
<brokeinside90> Hey
<phx[m]> herro
<parasew[m]> hi!
<midipoet> Hallo
<rehrar> wow. big crowd
<sgp_> fancy. thanks everyone!
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> I did not have a chance to grab community highlights before the meeting unfortunately. Who has one?
<sgp_> Breaking Monero episode 2 will go live after this meeting
<parasew[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/abl4df/35c3_rehrar_report/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] 35C3: rehrar report (self.Monero) | 72 points (93.0%) | 17 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2019-01-01 - 19:35:11
<parasew[m]> lots of Monero peeps have been meeting at the 35C3
<sgp_> ah yes, the 35c3. How did it go?
<parasew[m]> and there was an amazing stage with MC rehrar
<nevvton[m]> obviously as rehrar has written a nice post about this years 35c3, the critical decentralisation cluster was a huge success for Monero's community
<rehrar> o/
<sgp_> what handouts did you give out, other than the one copy of Mastering Monero? :p
<parasew[m]> we had a lot of printed material:
<parasew[m]> 1) monero wallets (ios, android)
<nevvton[m]> Parasew and RIAT had prepared numerous printed material
<parasew[m]> 2) information about monero and FFS
<parasew[m]> 3) lots of individual cards and prints (including pablonero's stash from last year)
<parasew[m]> the mastering monero book was also on display (in a custom printed version)
<serhack> :- ) Thank you!
<sgp_> Oh yeah, I guess I can say that we sold over 200 copies of Mastering Monero!
<el00ruobuob_[m]> hi guys, sorry i'm late
<serhack> @sgp_ We're going to reach 300 soon.
<sgp_> cool wallet handouts nevvton[m]!
<parasew[m]> we could also test the "frab" system and other tools for organising conferences, i will give an overview another time.
<sgp_> Great to hear 35c3 went so well. Make sure to let us know when the vidoes are posted
<ajs_xmr> congratulations serhack
<nevvton[m]> msvb-mob: made great batches for the conference
<msvb-mob> You mean 'badges.'
<sgp_> We'll hear your update in a bit, I'm excited :)
<msvb-mob> Thanks for the compliment, but I don't agree. There was not time to make good ones.
<sgp_> Any final updates before we proceed?
<sgp_> large space
<nevvton[m]> thats it- more pics in our upcoming post on reddit etc.
<sgp_> I look forward to reading it
<nevvton[m]> > You mean 'badges.'
<nevvton[m]> yes
<serhack> I do not know if we ever posted Mastering Monero here. But it was released on Amazon! https://www.amazon.com/dp/1731079966 . A donation report will be posted on Reddit soon :- )
<sgp_> 3. FFS updates
<sgp_> First, the FFS is expected to be updated this Monday. With any luck, we will never need to see the old forum ever again.
<brokeinside90>\o/
<brokeinside90> But what if I need to buy a Rolex watch
<midipoet>\o/
<el00ruobuob_[m]>\o/
<oneiric_> great work to all involved
<sgp_> I trade my drugs through the Monero FFS /s
<midipoet> brokeinside90: I have a Rolex for sale if you want. Good price for you ;-)
<brokeinside90> Lol
<sgp_> We will discuss the recent Kovri FFS update in its own section. Please leave all comments regarding Kovri to the end.
<sgp_> FFS proposals still needing funding:
<sgp_> ErCiccione localization: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/91261/erciccione-coordinator-of-the-localization-workgroup
<sgp_> midipoet TabConf: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/91357/ffs-ideas-midipoet-represent-monero-at-tabconf-2019
<sgp_> surae Monero Conference: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/90909/surae-noether-first-denver-monero-konferenco-spring-2019
<el00ruobuob_[m]> my FFS is still hidden in open ideas... hopefully the new FFS will revive it
<sgp_> Are they any comments on these proposals in funding required? Or did I miss another in Funding Required?
<ErCiccione> i have a couple of points to talk regarding FFS stuff sgp_
<sgp_> el00ruobuob_[m]: you've been waiting for a while, make a huge fuss if it isn't moved with the new FFS
<midipoet> Regards my FFS. I just wanted to announce here that I am leaving it up for another ~7 days. If the first payment threshold is not reached, Sarang said he will take my place. That means a smaller amount of funding is required.
<sgp_> Go ahead ErCiccione
<ErCiccione> el00ruobuob_ ping luigi about that ,weird it wasn't moved yet
<el00ruobuob_[m]> sure sgp_, but i hope more important things are funded before bothering anyone with mine
<ErCiccione> thanks sgp_, so
<binaryFate> el00ruobuob_[m] I can move it now if that was expected already
<rehrar> binaryFate: trusted with mostly positive feedback, so ye
<sgp_> binaryFate: yes, that would be fantastic. I know we've discussed it during the past several meetings
<binaryFate> all right
<el00ruobuob_[m]> it was by early december meeting binaryFate
<el00ruobuob_[m]> thanks
<ErCiccione> first point is about an FFS idea i posted on the forum some weeks ago about rewarding translators. I had some mixed opinions about it, at the beginning it sounded a bad idea for me, but than seeing that the community looked in favour i wrote down the idea in form of FFS request
<ErCiccione> but right after many other community members seemed against it. So,
<ErCiccione> what's the feeling about https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/91293/reward-monero-translators ?
<ErCiccione> would reward translators be a good idea or not? i'm troubled
<el00ruobuob_[m]> i am in favor, mainly to intencieve and rewrad reviewers
<ErCiccione> from one side i would like to see contributions based on passion for monero, but it's true that especially in this market it's very hard to find contributors in first place, and maybe a little incentive could help
<ErCiccione> so, thoughts?
<brokeinside90> I suspect there are many who are bilingual, who cannot code and want to help Monero
<el00ruobuob_[m]> and i agree with the principle of not double reward, for guys like me. so totally pro
<brokeinside90> Perhaps there's some way of gamifying it
<sgp_> What's the best way to encourage volunteerism while still getting more reviews? Is there some type of swag we offer to people who help for free? Even shirts are cheap-ish; what about special shirts?
<brokeinside90> I suspect a similar thing to the Monero games could be used
<rehrar> I have gone back and forth on this issue several times.
<sgp_> Cheaper still: special stickers
<rehrar> Currently sitting in the "bad idea" camp, but that may change tomorrow
<ErCiccione> sgp_ i like the idea of rewarding in some other non monetary way, but i really don't feel like collecting home addresses
<brokeinside90> Agreed
<sgp_> yes, it would only be cool with a few people
<binaryFate> What's the state now in practice?
<ErCiccione> if somebody has some alternative idea to incentive translators, that would be great
<brokeinside90> Monero games style thing, I can think about it
<brokeinside90> One point per peer reviewed word (and you need to peer review as many words as you translate, maybe)
<serhack> it could be a cool idea brokeinside90
<brokeinside90> Perhaps a monetary reward for the top contributors
<ErCiccione> binaryfate: now contributors contact me and i tell them what to translate according to their experience and technical knwoledge. Some of the most experts opened FFS proposal and got rewarded to work on big chunks of translations (getmonero or full translations in general)
<sgp_> Has there been a lot of interest among existing contributors for rewards?
<binaryFate> I mean are we lacking people a bit, a lot, not at all? Would that help? I find it hard to have an opinion on just concept without knowing where we stand
<ErCiccione> brokeinside90: the "per word" reward is impossible to realize. I think i wrote something about that in the proposal i linked
<el00ruobuob_[m]> we're lacking reviewer for some languages for sure
<el00ruobuob_[m]> i.e. getmonero arabic was merged based on a technical review
<ErCiccione> we are lacking of reviewers completely for some languages and i have to write reddit posts o ping for days old contributors to have other languages done. It's being quite frustrating]
<ErCiccione> but we are good for some languages like spanish, french itlaian and german
<ErCiccione> <el00ruobuob_: exactly, and i don't like that, but we got no reviewers for weeks
<binaryFate> Maybe reward people by making them "language responsible" or whatever you call it, which entail continuous attention.
<binaryFate> If you get 2 for each, you'll always get a reviewer at least
<ErCiccione> sgp_: yes, a good amount of anspiring contributors who PM me disappear as soon as they found out that they will get no monetary reward
<el00ruobuob_[m]> i have some some colleagues who could have helped if they have been expecting a small reward
<ErCiccione> binaryFate: That's already in the plan, pootle gives the possibility to have "language leaders", but that would be possible just for the 4 languages i wrote earlier
<endogenic> el00ruobuob_[m]: would they accept monero?
<el00ruobuob_[m]> yes, the guy i think about seems interested in monero
<ErCiccione> and for those we are basically already ok
<el00ruobuob_[m]> but didn't have time to get involved "for free"
<el00ruobuob_[m]> new house, new kid, ...
<sgp_> ErCiccione: I know you have made many posts about this already, but could you make a Reddit post asking for possible incentive ideas? It would be good material for other projects too
<ErCiccione> anyway, i ask you guys to comment on the forum post to let me know what you think about it, or if you have ideas, now i would like to talk about the second point, since we donn't have much time and that will require a discussion as well
<rehrar> I think the purity of the Monero community isn't just maintained by the big decisions, but by these little ones as well
<rehrar> I'm growing uncomfortable with any compromise to my stance of volunteering first before payment in any form
<rehrar> in the Arabic guy's case, he did the GUI for free, and then did a FFS for other work, which I think is the correct way to go
<ErCiccione> sgp_ i wanted to avoid the "yeah gimme money" river that i expected from reddit, but at this point i will probably do it
<sgp_> Yes, unfortunately we need to move on, but it's important to have these discussions about possible incentives and how we can attract more talent
<sgp_> ErCiccione: it could help to give a few ideas we have in the post and ask for feedback on those too
<ErCiccione> agreed. Going with the second point, i wrote few words before the meeting:
<el00ruobuob_[m]> ErCiccione, i "basically" commented
<ErCiccione> I proposed to endogenic to work on mymonero as coordinator of the localizations, to provide some internationalization of the project, he proposed me to open a FFS and ask the community to fund the work.
<ErCiccione> At the beginning i thought it was a good idea, but then i had some doubts about it. MyMonero is a private company and the idea of asking the community to fund work for a private company troubles me. I spoke with endogenic about it and he didn't take it well,
<endogenic> eh not exactly what i said
<ErCiccione> (and this is undeniable) for free during its history and this FFS would be a way to give back to mymonero and not doing it would discourage that kind of generous behavior (endogenic plese correct me if i'm saying something not correct).
<endogenic> just need to make it clear that it was more mutual
<ErCiccione> My point is that i would like to know how the community feels about this, since i'm not really convinced and in case it would set a precedent of a FFS proposal opened in favour of a private company.
<ErCiccione> So what are the opinions about it? would it be a favouritism? would it set a bad precedent of a community funding a company? would it be ok since mymonero contributed a lot to Monero's outreach? If yes, in what case would be ok to open a FFS for a company?
<endogenic> we're already doing pretty well on crowdin … but an ffs would certainly incentivize ErCiccione etc
<ErCiccione> I wanted to hear some opinions before taking a definitive decision about it, because i'm not short of work, but i am on time and i want to avoid any controversy.
<fordoes> MyMonero is open-source?
<endogenic> of course it is
<sgp_> I certainly wouldn't make it your main focus, and I would still prioritize other Monero projects first, but I think some collaboration is good
<endogenic> we've spent upwards of $100k developing software to release for Monero official and to open source for others to use in their own apps
<el00ruobuob_[m]> IMO myMonero should be a "sponsor" of a bit of the localization FFS...
<rehrar> MyMonero has done a frick of a lot for the ecosystem, in terms of contributions
<fordoes> So I don't see an issue since the code is independent of the company.
<rehrar> if companies were individuals then MyMonero would be among the top contributors
<sgp_> That's a good point fordoes. It mostly benefits MyMonero, but really it also benefits everyone else since it's liberally-licensed
<sgp_> It's more similar to Monerujo translations than not imo
<rehrar> given MyMonero's continued commitment to the ecosystem, I only wish them to make more money
<ErCiccione> yes, in case, mymonero would be just a very small portion of my work, the main will always be all the monero projects i already take care of
<rehrar> as that means their conributions will increase
<rehrar>*contributions
<sgp_> So ErCiccione: I personally say go for it as you see fit
<ErCiccione> sgp_ monerujo was founded by the community and it's "propriety" of the community, that's the point. but i see your point
<sgp_> Any other questions or discussion on this topic?
<ErCiccione> well, good to see that it's not a non-issue. I will talk about it with endogenic then and we will see what can be done, because right now my time is very limited
<ErCiccione> we can go on for me, thanks for the feedback guys
<sgp_> Let's wrap up the FFS stuff. Is there anything tucked away in ideas besides el00ruobuob_[m]'s proposal which is getting moved now?
<sgp_> speak now or forever hold your silence
<binaryFate> el00ruobuob_[m]: I need link to your proposal. Spam is horrible.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> sure binaryFate
<rehrar> fine I'll go kill the spam now
<sgp_> Let's move on in this meeting then
<el00ruobuob_[m]> http://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/91269/el00ruobuob-january-to-march-part-time-for-a-new-quarter
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<sgp_> This is a separate section where other workgroups can report on all that they are working on. If you would like for your workgroup to be represented, please contact me at least a few hours before the meeting.
<sgp_> a. Hardware team report (hardware project listing and dedicated hardware wallet status)
<oneiric_> closed my FFS, will reopen a revised one with the new FFS platform
<msvb-mob> There are several projects for which timer circuits, power circuits, and storage are being tested on.
<sgp_> thanks for the update oneiric_
<msvb-mob> For example badges, programmers, and coprocessors.
<msvb-mob> Things like online servers (blogs, distribution, calendar, and website) are being developed to improve communication.
<endogenic> excited for the new FFS platform. i think that if we can integrate alternate currency payment methods (especially fiat) then we'll see an explosion in contributions
<endogenic> (i'll be able to leverage my network for starters)
<msvb-mob> The Monezor wallet design has been mothballed, the Breakneck STM32F405 based design moved to a stmrev branch, and main wallet development is on the regular master tip in Breakneck.
<msvb-mob> That might be confusing, so ask if you need details.
<rehrar> as well
<parasew[m]> i need details :)
<ErCiccione> endogenic: not a fun of accepting payment with fiat. At the end we are meant to replace that system
<msvb-mob> The tip is hosting a codebase of the architecture we feel is most suitable (and secure) integrating a CEC1702 with on chip ECDSA (ed25519.)
<rehrar> this week we will be working on a "State of Open Hardware in Monero" document
<endogenic> ErCiccione: we have to be pragmatic about how we get there though. the fiat payments will be converted to monero and so the recipient only gets monero
<sgp_> rehrar: that will be immensely useful
<rehrar> a lot of people have misunderstandings about how the projects work
<msvb-mob> According to the forum requirements, we're doing the enclosure as well and those sources are online since a few weeks ago.
<endogenic> basically it's taking money out of the fiat system into monero
<endogenic> not a bad thing.
<msvb-mob> Wallets were available at 35C3.
<msvb-mob> That's all the report from the hardware team, unless others want to add something.
<serhack> +1 endogenic
<msvb-mob> Questions?
<oneiric_> how close/far from dev boards for testing/programming?
<ErCiccione> endogenic: still makes me sceptic the idea of accepting the "old system" to fund the creation of the "new", but i see your point
<sgp_> I unfortunately can't understand much of what you wrote since I'm not a hardware guy, but I look forward to the update.
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: The stmrev is running Monerujo, and the master branch is not yet tested with firmware.
<msvb-mob> There are people actively working on firmware for both architectures (at least that's what they tell me.)
<msvb-mob> Excuse me, the branch is called 'revstm' not 'stmrev.'
<oneiric_> awesome, is there a way for those interested to experiment/help with the firmware?
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: Yes, that's why I'm trying to get a store like site running, to aid distribution. Until that it's just use a arbitrary communication method to contact me (email or similar.)
<rehrar> ok, gotta move on
<rehrar> more to discuss
<sgp_> b. Defcon 27 village status
<oneiric_> thanks msvb-mob, will get in touch outside meeting
<msvb-mob> People have asked about DC27, which is why I put it on the agenda.
<msvb-mob> There are no villages in Defcon 27 until the DC management accepts and rejects proposals, so there are no concrete information yet.
<msvb-mob> But the chatter in the village channels suggests this year will be similar to last.
<msvb-mob> Any questions about this?
<rehrar> Let me know when CFP opens. I would like to submit the Monero village request.
<sgp_> Can we push for an even bigger room?
<rehrar> I'm getting feedback from many individuals, including fluffypony, about improvements
<rehrar> and I want to make sure these things are reflected.
<msvb-mob> Anything is possible (bigger, different location, room) and as many can make proposals as they want.
<sgp_> Cool, let's mostly table this discussion and schedule a Defcon-specific meeting closer to the application deadline
<rehrar> ye
<sgp_> Good to know we're more on-top of it this year
<sgp_> ErCiccione: any other updates for localization, or can we proceed?
<ErCiccione> not really. Working on start getting monerujo on pootle next week. But nothing major, we can go on with the other subjects
<sgp_> thanks
<sgp_> 5. Kovri discussion
<sgp_> Kovri is a tool that can be used to tunnel traffic over I2P. Recently, the lead maintainer anonimal stated that he had more interest in another project, Sekreta.
<sgp_> Anonimal posted an update here: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1058561
<sgp_> I wrote a comment regarding the issue, which anonimal responded to here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/acgr0q/anominal_statement_on_secreta_and_kovri/edan760/?context=10000
<monerobux> [REDDIT] Anominal statement on Secreta and Kovri (https://paste.debian.net/plain/1058561) to r/Monero | 81 points (92.0%) | 78 comments | Posted by qertoip | Created at 2019-01-04 - 09:58:59
<sgp_> anonimal added a few more comments in the GitHub issue for this meeting: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/297
<sgp_> To get a quick preface out of the way before discussion, the Community Workgroup discusses relevant items of community interest. Anonimal’s recent update is of important community interest. Furthermore, his recent FFS update, wherein he is asking the community to pay for his work on Sekreta, certainly is of community interest. We have historically discussed all FFS proposals and important payouts here.
<sgp_> While we ask for others to be present at these meetings if they are available, they are not required to show up, and we can have discussions in the meantime in their absence. They are welcome to discuss and share their point of view through other means, which it seems like they already have. I feel that we absolutely should discuss an important recent community development here.
<sgp_> We have a few Kovri contributors here, including oneiric_ and Sean.
<oneiric_> o/
<sgp_> This is some reserved time to collect community feedback regarding recent Kovri developments and to help the community get a better understanding
<el00ruobuob_[m]> I aprove anonimal blindly, but have not contributed to the FFS. If he believe Sekreta is a better way to go, let's do it
<endogenic> el00ruobuob_[m]: part of the problem is that simply having kovri doesn't mean we can't have sekreta - i mean we're right at the finish line with the API - why can't we just finish the API? we're already building a transport-agnostic way to do networking in monero
<endogenic> that makes it all the easier to switch out in the future
<endogenic> so it's not like we wouldn't adopt a better solution in the future
<endogenic> i personally find it troubling that the API being finished was promised and then it was just abandoned
<endogenic> plus i take issue with statements like no one is contributing to kovri
<endogenic> it's clear people are contributing
<endogenic> and yet those contributors keep getting alienated in exceedingly harsh ways
<endogenic> sorry to speak my mind but it is what it is
<endogenic> i dont think it's fair
<shatter> part ways with anonimal asap and hire a good developer to finish kovri.
<sgp_> oneiric_ sean can you speak more about the current situation of how Kovri is today? I think there's a lot of confusion
<oneiric_> i agree there needs to be more clear ground rules, and community involvement on all sides
<fordoes> How far are we from Kovri being completed if we ignore Sekreta?
<oneiric_> for an update, are you looking for where kovri is technically?
<sgp_> yes
<oneiric_> what does kovri being "complete" mean for you fordoes?
<endogenic> oneiric_: i think it means embeddable
<endogenic> personally
<ErCiccione> I think the situation is very complicated and not easy to solve. Looks clear that Sekreta is the best way to go technically, but it's also true that the community could have been informed of what was going on in a clearer way. I asked anonimal to schedule a kovri meeting to better understand what's the state of the project right now and allow the community to ask for clarifications
<oneiric_> imho, kovri is serviceable atm. it's API and overall design leaves a lot to be desired
<sgp_> oneiric_: we have one clear main goal for Kovri with Monero: hiding transaction broadcast info. The second, much less important and more difficult goal is hiding that you are running a Monero node completely
<nioc> this is what it says in the original FFS
<nioc> Guarantee Kovri/Monero integration
<nioc> Integration with monerod
<nioc> Integration with GUI
<nioc> Building/releasing on same platforms as Monero
<nioc> Linux/OSX/Windows
<nioc> i686/amd64/armv7/armv8
<knaccc> does anyone disagree with anonimal's statement that "this codebase is a steaming pile of dog-****". oneiric_?
<oneiric_> ErCiccione: agreed 100%, i was also hoping anonimal would be present at this meeting to discuss
<_Slack> <sean> The goal for the last 6 months has been to complete work on the embedded API to have integration.
<el00ruobuob_[m]> endogenic, indeed anonimal is abrubt, but he is a wise guy.
<endogenic> el00ruobuob_[m]: how wise is a person who alienates contributors and then claims no one is contributing
<oneiric_> sgp_: kovri can be embeddable in that sense right now
<brokeinside90> Abrupt? More like unnecessarily abrasive and hard to work with.
<shatter> toxic and scatterbrained
<oneiric_> knaccc: i don't. i effing hate digging through that sh*tshow
<el00ruobuob_[m]> a rainman-like wise guy we want to keep working on it maybe endogenic
<sgp_> oneiric_: what would be the large barriers to getting a MVP-style integration with monerod and the cli?
<brokeinside90> And frankly, as an employee paid by the community, you would think he could set aside an hour every couple weeks to talk with us. Especially today.
<oneiric_> personal attacks aside, kovri dev is incredibly frustrating, probably more than it needs to be
<ErCiccione> can we avoid personal insults please? that doesn't help to solve the situation and make the drama even worse. Let's try to focus only on the situation we have to deal with
<nioc> ^^^^
<brokeinside90> What is an insult, and what is getting character traits on the record?
<brokeinside90> Because this has gone on far too long without being seriously addressed
<sgp_> brokeinside90: let's just focus the discussion on the state of Kovri right now
<oneiric_> sgp_: i think vtnerd's work is a huge step toward an mvp
<knaccc> oneiric_ then do you agree that if kovri is to succeed, it must be led by an experienced developer that can rewrite it from scratch using hardening best practices and design that is simple enough to be auditable? and that that ideally a rewrite of kovri should not be undertaken unless we can get multiple contributors that are good communicators and able to encourage others to join the effort?
<el00ruobuob_[m]> endogenic, i have also been directly attacked by anonimal one time about kovri roadmap, but even if the guy has no filter he still his wise and helpfull
<sgp_> then we can move on to cover other important discussions
<endogenic> el00ruobuob_[m]: what question are we actually trying to answer here?
<endogenic> i'm saying that i dont think it was right to abandon an agreement to the community. it was at the finish line
<endogenic> knaccc: rewriting from scratch might not be necessary
<el00ruobuob_[m]> sorry i'm catching up
<endogenic> but it would be up to the new dev
<sgp_> I'm trying to figure out how far away from the "finish line" we are. Is it likely the codebase would be too complex to maintain and improve even if the integration is complete?
<oneiric_> knaccc: i think that would be a great step in the right direction. having more experienced devs, and a consensus on good design, explicitly laid out, all necessary for a successful rewrite
<endogenic> oneiric_: i agree re: vtnerd's work
<rehrar> :/
<oneiric_> sgp_: it's hard to explain how maddening it is to work with kovri in it's current state
<rehrar> oneiric_: are you speaking of the codebase?
<ErCiccione> i'm playing devil's advocate here endogenic, but his point was not to abandon the agreement, but to fulfil it or change it
<oneiric_> replacing with the latest iteration of i2pd doesn't solve this, the author of that project is the one largely responsible for the spaghet i gotta eat every time i look at the code
<endogenic> ErCiccione: by taking 3 more years on more potential vaporware ?
<endogenic> i dont see why we cant complete kovri as it is
<endogenic> there's no reason not to is there ?
<endogenic> it's not like monero wouldn't use sekreta or whatever in the future if it's better
<endogenic> but how is it right to hold the community hostage like this?
<sgp_> oneiric_: all right, good to know a little bit more about the code still shared with i2pd
<endogenic> it seems a product of fear instead of open communication
<oneiric_> endogenic: i somewhat agree with you. we should lay the groundwork getting "something" working with kovri
<sgp_> oneiric_: what advantages does Kovri right now provide over i2pd?
<ErCiccione> we can, but in his opinion is not a good idea to use kovri as it is, but better build sekreta and use that. if it's the right decision or not i let it decide to who is more technically competent than me
<rehrar> here's one of the primary issues for me: I am not technical enough to review the spec for Sekreta and validate for myself whether it would be useful.
<oneiric_> stop wrestling with hardening the goop that's there. start implementing from scratch a minimal, modular i2p router
<ErCiccione> i agree that all the situation wasn't managed in a good way tho
<endogenic> ErCiccione: his opinion is that Tor is not good either but what good is that argument when we have no other option?
<endogenic> oneiric_: i kind of like that idea
<oneiric_> sgp_: many of kovri's biggest problems are because of i2pd
<rehrar> We are all operating on the assumption that Sekreta is a good and superior option, and, while I don't necessarily have reason to doubt anonimal did good work, I would like verification from people that are technically competent, especially in the area of mixnet and privacy technology, to vouch for the idea as a whole
<endogenic> rehrar: problem is sekreta is a looong way out
<endogenic> it doesn't exist.
<rehrar> endogenic: simple: ICO
<endogenic> LOLL
<oneiric_> rehrar some of the ideas are really exciting in sekreta. without code and more design details, hard to judge
<sgp_> I know many of the problems are related to i2pd, but what improvements have been made to Kovri over i2pd in the last few years?
<ErCiccione> endogenic: his opinion is that no single layer technology would help because deprecated, to have a real cool and effective technology, only sekreta seems to be the solution
<rehrar> As a privacy advocate first and foremost, if Sekreta is what it claims to be, then it's indeed very exciting. And if Tor is going to be integrated in the meantime, and Kovri is in a miserable state, I say we let it go.
<oneiric_> sgp_: many bug-fixes, automated testing, refactors for hardening, some for clarity, cleaning up C-with-classes spaghet code
<rehrar> I am very disappointed in the lack of communication up to this point regarding Sekreta, however
<endogenic> ErCiccione: i'm familiar with his opinion. question is, are you willing to wait for 3 years for potential vaporware while we have no better alternative in place? what does that do for the superiority of Monero's tech?
<endogenic> i think i've repeated this enough times now ErCiccione :P
<rehrar> I'm not aware of anyone who really knew the full extent of the "surprises" planned for December. And I feel like if anonimal would have requested from the community to take a bit of time for R&D purposes, because he thinks he's found a fatal flaw in the whole setup, he would have got it
<sgp_> Besides the obvious of Sekreta not existing, I'm not convinced it makes sense. We're trying to hide network metadata, not increase exposure by spreading this metadata across many different channels
<nioc> AIUI sekreta is used along with tor or i2p, not a replacment for them. Is that correct?
<sgp_> nioc: correct, afaict
<moneromooo> No.
<rehrar> endogenic: isn't this solved by implementing tor as a stop gap?
<ErCiccione> endogenic: i understand what you mean as i understood it before, but what is the solution here? plug in kovri and then fund the work with sekreta?]
<oneiric_> nioc: yeah, it's a "secretary" for routing/managing traffic over multiple anon networks
<moneromooo> It can be viewed as a kind of multiplexer.
<ErCiccione> anyway, i don't think this discussion can go anywhere until anonimal is not present, can we talk about it again in a dedicated kovri meeting? or general meeting, i don't know...]
<moneromooo> Except it will use all branches, with secret sharing (AFAIK).
<oneiric_> ErCiccione: i also favor a kovri dedicated meeting
<_Slack> <sean> moneromooo: Yes, that's the gist of it.
<brokeinside90> Mooo, anonimal said you chatted with him, is there anything from that discussion that you think is relevant?
<moneromooo> Just that he was much more reasonable once the abusive tendency got under control :)
<endogenic> ErCiccione: rehrar: even having kovri in its messy state will attract developers to improve it
<oneiric_> moneromooo: the secret sharing is part of what i was curious about. will be interesting to see how the design keeps sekreta from being one big single point of failure
<nioc> so in order for sekreta to be useful it needs something like tor or i2p?
<endogenic> and i agree with oneiric's idea to rebuild it slowly modularly and minimally - even if rewriting something is dangerous - rewriting something once we know exactly what we need is actually usually highly successful
<moneromooo> Yes, it'll need one network at least. Two if it's to be really of any use.
<ErCiccione> on /r/sekreta there is a ELI5 explanation of what sekreta is FWIW
<sgp_> We have one more topic to cover regarding anonimal's recent FFS update that I want to take an initial poll to get some community feedback on: anonimal's decision to bill his previous hours spent on Sekreta in his FFS proposal
<endogenic> lol ^
<oneiric_> endogenic: absolutely, rewriting/writing from scratch is a risk. much less risky imo than continuing with untestable code with childish zero-days still present in i2pd code
<endogenic> agreed
<ErCiccione> sgp_ i still think there is no point to talk about this without anonimal explaining what his plans are. I read that more like a provocation than an actual proposal
<oneiric_> sgp_: shouldn't the interested parties be present for that? namely anonimal and the contributor's to anonimal's ffs?
<oneiric_> +1 ErCiccione
<sgp_> smooth made it clear they do not verify donors
<rehrar> this is what the FFS boils down to, yes
<rehrar> one of its flaws in its current iteration
<fordoes> Agree ErCiccione
<oneiric_> sgp_: no it would require self-identification
<sgp_> oneiric_: yes but the Core Team would have to validate
<oneiric_> just saying, pretty unfair to hold a discussion about someone's funding without that someone or their funders present
<binaryFate> Donators donate on the understanding and basis that we pay based on milestones reached or not.
<sgp_> ^
<endogenic> at the end of the day kovri dev can and should occur simultaneously with whatever else - but diverting funds from kovri is wrong imo and perhaps that he had a feeling people would say no to diverting kovri funds before the kovri API was completed and so he went and did it in secret for that reason? i don't know
<rehrar> to be fair, anonimal's milestones are hourly, and not deliverable based
<fordoes> But what confidence will donators have if Koviri isn't completed?
<sgp_> anyway, it seems like we need a dedicated Kovri / Sekreta meeting. My personal thoughts remain in my Reddit comment
<sgp_> There will be plenty more discussions in the future
<moneromooo> About that point: my understanding is that he worked more hours than claimed. So you can also view that sekreta work as unfunded maybe. I don't know the numbers though.
<rehrar> if you want my honest (current) opinion, I say that he has donated a bajillion hours to Kovri and otherwise over his stay in Monero. give the man his money, end the proposal, and the community can decide what to do next if he opens another one
<rehrar> The fact of the matter is, he is way over hours for the proposal as it currently stands, just many of those hours are unbilled
<rehrar> and Kovri will not be completed in a meaningfully expected way with the last two milestones anyways
<endogenic> that's why we need communication though
<endogenic> open communication *
<rehrar> we're too late for that
<nioc> rehrar but as I posted there were also certain things guaranteed which is where some confusion comes from
<rehrar> and the community can decide based on that poor communication whether the want to fund anonimal again
<endogenic> yeah but that it's too late can't be used retroactively to justify him billing for that
<nioc> yes all the hrs were put in
<rehrar> nioc those were goals, not deliverables
<endogenic> it's like holding the community hostage
<binaryFate> General statement, for any contributor in the future: would be so much easier to handle for everyone if contributor would make a statement and trigger discussion *before* starting work that may be seen as deviating from FFS.
<rehrar> I understand, and agree endogenic
<sgp_> binaryFate: I totally agree
<rehrar> binaryFate: agreed here as well
<rehrar> and as I said, if he had told the community that he found a critical flaw in the Kovri setup, and that he'd like a month to R&D something, he probably would have got it
<oneiric_> binaryFate: sounds more than fair to me too
<rehrar> the community is reasonable and privacy conscious, and something like that would have probably seen decent support for said R&D
<sgp_> I am going to end this meeting here. We will have many other discussions about this in the future. Lots of topics to work out
<rehrar> My big question is this
<nioc> rehrar: but he used the word guaranteed for a deliverable so again it leads to confusion, I donated and it confused me :)
<oneiric_> definitely, thanks for the dedicated kovri time sgp_
<sgp_> really quick rehrar
<dEBRUYNE> To preserve the integrity of the FFS, I don't think we should simply pay him out simply because he has worked some unbilled hours
<rehrar> what benefit do we have holding a guy who is burnt out and doesn't care for the work or codebase, to work on it for a few more hours? We won't get anything out of it.
<endogenic> rehrar not sure who is suggesting that
<rehrar> dEBRUYNE: we learned a lot of things about the FFS along the way. Anonimal's proposal was early and way too long
<rehrar> similar to learning from the fireice proposal, guzzi, and others
<endogenic> rehrar: to be honest i don't agree
<rehrar> we don't necessarily set precedent by our learning experiences from early proposals
<endogenic> it takes a lot of experience and also discipline to write a library
<dEBRUYNE> Perhaps diverting the funds to working is okay conditional on him not receiving payment until there is integration with XMR
<rehrar> endogenic: alright, that's ok. Just my thoughts.
<sgp_> I'm going to end the meeting now. Thanks for the discussion. Skipping open ideas time (#6)
<sgp_> 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 19 January at 17:00 UTC.
<rehrar> kthanksbai <3
<sgp_> The next Monero Coffee Chat will take place NEXT SATURDAY on 12 January at 17:00 UTC.
<_Slack> <sean> Thanks sgp_
<sgp_> When in doubt, use the calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<sgp_> 8. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.

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