Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2019-09-22
Development status, 0.15 release discussion, Network upgrade planning, and miscellaneous
dev diaries
core
crypto
el00ruobuob / rehrar
Logs
<rehrar> ok <rehrar> it's time <rehrar> 1. Greetings <rehrar> who all is here? <sgp_> hello :) <needmonero90> Hi <xmrscott[m]> Hey hey hey <rbrunner> Hi <tevador> hey <sech1> \o/ <ErCiccione[m]> Hi <ferretinjapan> so everyone except the people rehrar pinged are here, nice. <rehrar> it would seem so <rehrar> moneromooo: do we have you at least? :P <moneromooo> Yes. <rehrar> one last round for fluffypony luigi1111 ArticMine binaryFate <rehrar> please join us ASAP <rehrar> in the meantime, we can move on to 2. What's been completed since last meeting? <vtnerd__> here <sech1> I've finished RandomX JIT compiler for ARM CPUs. Verification time is even better than CN/R on ARM. <moneromooo> Pretty good stuff here. <rbrunner> Nice <ArticMine> Hi <dEBRUYNE> I am here <meksi> Hi <tevador> so I guess we are including the ARM JIT in the release? <tevador> probably no reason not to <moneromooo> It can be disabled with an env var AFAIK so sure. <tevador> just it hasn't been heavily tested as the x86 JIT <SoiMatter> Sirs! ferretinjapan asked moi to join. <hyc> since it's easily toggled off, I'd say we run with it <jtgrassie> hi <SoiMatter> o7 I will keep still :) <moneromooo> monerod can now synced from pruned blocks (optional). I'd like this to go in before release if reviewed. <rehrar> Honest question to everyone, now that CLI has reproducible builds, can we as a community decide on a date without input from Core? <selsta> GUI? <rehrar> that's next selsta :P <selsta> yes but it would be nice to release both the CLI and GUI at the same time and that depends on core <moneromooo> Pony still controls the website (for binaries to be uploaded), and the DNS records (for the hashes of the binaries). <rehrar> ok so there's distribution and GUI to consider <dEBRUYNE> Pony said he'd be around for the CLI & GUI release <rehrar> I mean, ultimately we want to go along this road at some point to reduce centralization anyways, no? <moneromooo> Also needs people to build for random OSes. Does Windows have repro builds too ? <ArticMine> Do we have a release date in mind? <dEBRUYNE> moneromooo: Yes <dEBRUYNE> At least for the CLI <ErCiccione[m]> ArticMine: i think the idea was to set a date today <rehrar> so let's set one <rehrar> ArticMine can represent the core team here <sgp_> October 26? <rehrar> Are we thinking mid-October? End of October? <dEBRUYNE> I would personally prefer a bit more towards the end of October, as that gives us a bit more leeway <ArticMine> I do not ave an issue with setting a release date at this meeting <ErCiccione[m]> i agree <hyc> Let's go with October 31, Halloween <tevador> is this the release date of the fork date? <tevador> or* <hyc> it'll be scary <moneromooo> I have some reservations about the stability of randomx-in-monerod. Bugs are still coming in fast. <needmonero90> Monero's spoopy fork <rehrar> tevador: fork date <dEBRUYNE> tevador: fork date <sech1> October 31 is a bit too late <moneromooo> So pushing back would be good in my view :) <ArticMine> and code freeze? <rehrar> if mooo has reservations then maybe 31 is a decent date? <rehrar> sech1: what's your reasoning? <tevador> so better to not do it in the middle of the week <luigi1111> I'm sorta here <sech1> October 31 is kind of an edge of publicly promised "fork in October" <sech1> October 26 sounds better <moneromooo> I don't anyone (who counts) ever promised. <hyc> assuming it's actually ready by then <needmonero90> Welcome to decentralization sech1. <rehrar> I am fine with 26th <tevador> yeah, 26 October would be better if it's doable <needmonero90> Community won't be too mad if we don't hit deadlines <SoiMatter> Go with the date of the next UK election <hyc> testnet has been disturbingly unstable the past few weeks. <hyc> but most of the problems were unrelated to randomX <Inge-> Better a safe launch than an october launch. <ArticMine> One key point is the time between release and fork date <rbrunner> Normal testnet or the RandomX testnet? <hyc> randomX testnet <hyc> but the issues with peers being disconnected and banned would have happened on public testnet too if anyone bothered to exercise that <hyc> basically current git master is unstable, recent changes to the networking code broke a lot. <sech1> if fork is October 26 (4 weeks), would 2 weeks be enough to fix all that? <sech1> and would additional 5 days help? <ErCiccione[m]> i'm starting to think would be better to posticipate to after october <tevador> so it looks more like November <ArticMine> Release and fork date ware very different <dEBRUYNE> hyc: Those recent changes will be reverted by 5905 right? <moneromooo> Yes. <ArticMine> We need to give people time to update <ErCiccione[m]> if there are so many doubts i would just wait. No reason to rush it, this is a big fork <hyc> agreed, safer to wait <rehrar> so really all of this should have been discussed two weeks to a month ago <sgp_> I don't think the optics of a "late" Oct 31 date will be terrible. We can get ahead of it with the Halloween marketing. If people prefer November, then I think we should still pick a date <M5M400> will this release discontinue legacy payment IDs? <rehrar> so for next time we really need to start seriously discussing the fork two months prior to "planned" date <moneromooo> Yes. <moneromooo> Though currently not banned, just code removed. <dEBRUYNE> rehrar: I don't think we could have foreseen the issues arosen on testnet <moneromooo> Are any large exchanges still using them ? <ArticMine> I suggest an October 31 release date with a fork date 4 weeks later <luigi1111> late is far better than broken <sgp_> I can try to compile a list <sech1> We still need to decide fork date and release schedule today <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: literally every single fork there is a "I don't think we could have foreseen" situation? <needmonero90> What happened to move fast and break things? This is tech! <dEBRUYNE> Yes because there will simply be things that cannot be foreseen <dEBRUYNE> You cannot perfectly plan such a thing <luigi1111> I too enjoy breaking money when possible <rehrar> ok, ArticMine has made a concrete suggestion <rehrar> 31st release date, one month later fork date <sgp_> one month? why one month? <needmonero90> I think its reasonable. <needmonero90> No objection here. <ferretinjapan> luigi1111, I agree, late and working is far better than on time and buggy... <hyc> is that the same offset we used in previous releases? <M5M400> moneromooo: i have about 330 miners still mining to payment_id addresses. that's 5 % <sgp_> no, closer to two weeks I think <ArticMine> To give people proper notice to upgrade <luigi1111> that's what it ended up being <needmonero90> We were pushing to the wire last time <needmonero90> To be fair <luigi1111> we never targeted two weeks that's simply not ideal <needmonero90> Two weeks was cutting it close <ArticMine> This has been an issue many times before <ErCiccione[m]> yeah, one month seems fair <sech1> October 31st release and November 30th fork then? <luigi1111> yes we've always pushed releases to late but doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do better <ArticMine> sounds fine to me <sgp_> So what specific fork date? <tevador> 30th Nov <rbrunner> November 30 is again Saturday, which is nice <sech1> let's hope CN/R holds without ASICs until then :) <ArticMine> So when is code freeze? <moneromooo> Whenever we don't have anything left we want to merge :) <ErCiccione[m]> now with reproducible build releases should be much faster, at least for CLI. We rarely managed to release at the time we decided <needmonero90> October 31st makes sense imo <sgp_> I think having a release in October will help with optics. And a 31st update is easy to brand <rehrar> alright, it looks like we have a loose consensus, unless anyone would like to speak now <ArticMine> Sure but how much time is needed between code freeze and release? <rehrar> in opposition <luigi1111> like a week <luigi1111> but fluffy fluffy fluffy <selsta> +1 <selsta> long code freezes never work <rehrar> luigi1111: did not show <dEBRUYNE> We only need fluffy to upload the bins though for the CLI release <dEBRUYNE> (and do the website) <luigi1111> I know but if he's building he has to be able to commit to a schedule <sgp_> so Thanksgiving weekend hardfork (Nov 30) <sech1> yes, better safe than sorry <hyc> since we have reproducible builds we don't need him to build <dEBRUYNE> rehrar: He said he'd be available for the release (he'd prefer to have a timeline a bit in advance though) <rehrar> luigi1111: if he's unable to commit to a schedule, then we can do the deterministic builds thing, and just make sure they get uploaded <luigi1111> ok cool <luigi1111> then just gooey <rehrar> which is you <ArticMine> The time between code freeze and release need to be set buy those closest to the code <rehrar> can you commit to this schedule? <dEBRUYNE> GUI gets build by pony <rehrar> oof <needmonero90> Speaking of build privs, I would like to formally propose that some of the GUI repo privileges be transferred to dsc (the non deterministic build part at the very least) <M5M400> how can fluffy still be the only person able to do some vital things? <luigi1111> I'm the one going to be doing all the merges in both projects so heh <dEBRUYNE> rehrar: Third time and last time I will say -> He said he'd be available for the release <rehrar> M5M400: that's why deterministic builds is top priority <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: ok <ferretinjapan> M5M400, mainly because reproducible builds were never a thing before now. <needmonero90> luigi1111: we really should move some of those responsibilities to dsc. <dEBRUYNE> needmonero90: I disagree, then we would have coders merging their own stuff <needmonero90> He would be the new maintainer/lead of gui <needmonero90> Or something <rehrar> ok, any other questions in regards to the set dates? October 31st release, November 30th fork. <moneromooo> So what do we need for the release ? readline fixes for repro builds, randomx. The pay-for-service stuff. Payment ID changes. Hopefully the sync-pruned-blocks. Anything else that's large or really needed ? <ferretinjapan> freeze date? <rehrar> needmonero90: that would be the first time a non-core team member will have done this. Not impossible, but certainly unprecedented and worthy of a bigger discussion which we don't have time for here in this meeting <dEBRUYNE> Once we branch the code is basically frozen right? Because then only fixes go in <ErCiccione[m]> one week code freeze would be appreciated. Let's remember that there are the translation to deal with (and i beg for a code freeze since ever :D) <needmonero90> Okay, tabled for now rehrar <moneromooo> vtnerd__: are you planning to have some more network stuff ready for the release ? <ferretinjapan> I guess the #monero-pow guys would have a better idea when to freeze... <ArticMine> Oct 24th as per luigi1111 selsta? <luigi1111> he's not the only one with access to a couple things but the only one that actively used his access <dEBRUYNE> moneromooo: The readline fix is 5892 right? <selsta> ArticMine: yes <luigi1111> until recently where him and pigeons have both not been to active <moneromooo> Could be. Depends on what people who have the problem say after testing it :) <dEBRUYNE> ArticMine: I think we can branch earlier, but moneromooo probably has a better view on that <ArticMine> moneromooo does Oct 24 work for code freeze? <ErCiccione[m]> pigeons is active. I asked him to update the server of getmonero last time <moneromooo> That sounds plausible to me. <M5M400> moneromooo: it appears bittrex and binance still use payment_id's <ErCiccione[m]> and he also gave me a hand with weblate <moneromooo> Thanks. <vtnerd__> moneromooo : yes, the split mempool is jst about done (finishing core tests nows) <rehrar> wow <dEBRUYNE> M5M400: Binance is working on upgrading their system, needmonero90 is in touch with them <rehrar> vtnerd__: so your stuff will make it in this one? <vtnerd__> and the dandelion++ remnants _shouldn't_ be too painful - although I always say that :/ <M5M400> dEBRUYNE: saifu. great. <needmonero90> Binance indicated they should be ready by fork in October. Pushing the date back shouldnt hurt the timeline. <M5M400> anyone in touch with bittrex? <dEBRUYNE> They are aware as far as I know <vtnerd__> I can't say whether it will "make it in", because theres always a chance something comes up during review, etc <vtnerd__> but the split mempool for the i2p/tor is close to ready. my concern is that its kind of tough the way it got shoved in <rbrunner> You mean in a technical sense? <vtnerd__> I took hyc's approach of adding a tag to the metadata, but I had to inspect a bunch of code paths to make sure stuff didn't leak <binaryFate> hi all, sorry got late to the party <vtnerd__> ultimately a true "physical" or "logical" split would be ideal, but it seemed kind of tough at the momnent when I tried to think about hwo to do it <moneromooo> Oh so it's a single txpool, just txes have a flag ? <vtnerd__> yeah, unfortunately <M5M400> are we aware of any GPU miner in the works for randX that will be ready in time for spork? <moneromooo> That's what I did for the sync-from-pruned :) <hyc> M5M400: xmrig is ready <luigi1111> 24th and 31st targets are good with me for 30th fork <sech1> M5M400 xmrig 4.0 is combined CPU + OpenCL miner <vtnerd__> if thats worth a reject, then I can go back and try again, but its a little dicey otherwise (it requires a slightly larger refactor and possibly a second lmdb database) <luigi1111> mostly afk now <rehrar> vtnerd__: if this does make it in this time, it can be iterated on in the future no? <M5M400> hyc: sech1: nice <moneromooo> It's not IMHO. I'd have done that too. <moneromooo> But then I tend to shove things in :) <vtnerd__> yes, I don't think the patch makes it harder to refactor, its probably neutral from that perspective <hyc> I don't really see other approaches to that as being a good idea <tevador> btw, fork height could be 1978433, which is exactly the start of a RandomX epoch and should be in the afternoon CET on Nov 30th <vtnerd__> as an example of what I mean - one of the weird cases is that fluffy blocks request can leak the anonymity channel, etc, so yeah <dEBRUYNE> tevador: Afternoon CET would allow most people to be online, because it would basically be late evening for Asia and morning for US <moneromooo> And let's reset testnet to fork on an epoch boundary too ? <tevador> dEBRUYNE: yeah, nice coincidence <ErCiccione[m]> i guess we have a fork height. Nice <rbrunner> With a testnet fork around release, end of October? <hyc> sounds good <dEBRUYNE> To summarize the timeline, this is approximately correct right? Branch within 2-3 weeks, freeze October 24, release October 31, fork November 30 <moneromooo> I think we have everything we need for v12 now, apart from randomx, so we can fork the real testnet as soon as it gets merged. <rbrunner> Even better then <tevador> that looks like a sensible schedule <sech1> yes, plenty of time to iron out all issues <rbrunner> Famous last words :) <dEBRUYNE> It at least feels we are better prepared now than last time :-P <tevador> someone should strictly enforce code freeze this time <rehrar> penalty of death <ErCiccione[m]> tevador: i strongly agree <dEBRUYNE> moneromooo: Do we need pony around to fork the real testnet? <PauleBert> can we reset stagenet too? it is getting quite huge <moneromooo> Yes, the miner's one of his nodes, and seed nodes need updating too. <moneromooo> The former's not a big problem, but the latter kinda is. <needmonero90> Don't reset stagenet :( <dEBRUYNE> Ok, I will send him a message then <needmonero90> Telegram tipbot uses it <rbrunner> "Reset" means here dropping a few hundreds of blocks probably, no new genesis block <needmonero90> It'll wipe all our balances ;_; <rbrunner> Back to the latest epoc date, that is <needmonero90> (yes, I know, it's stagenet) <rbrunner> Or a few thousands ... <M5M400> are we in any way concerned about the probably 10x hashrate post fork and the amount of blocks being spit out quickly? might it be a good idea to set a ballpark initial diff? <hyc> I'm guessing that will be offset by the typical hashrate drop due to not everyone updating <moneromooo> I am not. <sech1> I don't think so. It'll rather grow slowly. <rbrunner> I think to remember from earlier forks that "doctoring" the diff is not trivial <sech1> Even with higher hashrate from CPUs, hard fork drop in hashrate will make initial diff roughly the same as now <ferretinjapan> I wouldn't be worried un less ASICs were currently saturating the network, but by the sounds of it, theres been no indication of that being the case... <M5M400> I've seen a few big miners on the pool that are most likely CPU based. one instance of 17MH cn/r. these operations don't miss forks, as opposed to casual miners <sech1> No signs of ASICs <ferretinjapan> thats good. <rehrar> alright, is there anything else of note to discuss? <ErCiccione[m]> minor: is it fine for everybody if we take down the current warning on getmonero, it's there since last fork <needmonero90> We need to talk about extending the Monero Foundation's Dev tax, and the Monero name trademark issue <ErCiccione[m]> i want to avoid people not reading it because they are used to it when we put up the new one <needmonero90> Oh wait wrong coin <needmonero90> We good <hyc> ErCiccione[m]: good idea <rbrunner> Yeah, take it down before it gets a running gag or something <rbrunner> "Monero mixes up its hardforks" <rehrar> alright <ErCiccione[m]> alright, will open a PR tomorrow <rehrar> alright friends, it would seem we're all good <needmonero90> Is Gui considered core? <needmonero90> Or is it it's own thing <hyc> dEBRUYNE: now that randomx has quieted down I'll get to rebasing that gitian PR of mine <ErCiccione[m]> needmonero90: that's actually a good question. See https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/384 <selsta> Please no renaming discussion. <selsta> The github issue is a better place for that. <rehrar> alright everyone, we'll officially break for today <rehrar> thanks for coming. Good discussion, and got a lot done. <hyc> who's posting meeting logs? <rehrar> We can continue on a two weeks schedule for now? Or want to go to one week mini-check in on off weeks? <ErCiccione[m]> hyc: el00ruobuob, usually <hyc> ok. <hyc> I think next mtg in 2 weeks is fine. after that, we can decide again <rehrar> ok <ErCiccione[m]> unles you didn't mean on getmonero <rehrar> sounds good <dEBRUYNE> hyc: Thanks <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione[m]: I'd prefer to update it with a general information thread regarding the upcoming fork <dEBRUYNE> I can have that ready next week <ErCiccione[m]> dEBRUYNE: sure! will you PR it on repo.getmonero? <IRC-Source_89> guys sorry for the question , but i missed the begining of the discussion... Have you already choosen a block height for the fork? <scoobybejesus> tevador> btw, fork height could be 1978433, which is exactly the start of a RandomX epoch and should be in the afternoon CET on Nov 30th <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione[m]: Sure <scoobybejesus> there seemed to be rough consensus on that <IRC-Source_89> thank you <ErCiccione[m]> dEBRUYNE: great, thank you. Ping el00ruobuob_ so he remembers to not PR it <dEBRUYNE> I don't mind if he PRs it <ErCiccione[m]> he usally PR them after more than one week, should be fine <dEBRUYNE> Are we talking about the same thing? :P <dEBRUYNE> I was referring to the new information thread regarding the fork <ErCiccione[m]> I was talking about the logs :P i understood you wanted to include them in the thread. <ErCiccione[m]> but anyway, we should really make a blog post about it. <sech1> So will the schedule be officially announced soon? <rbrunner> sgp_ was fast: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/d7twle/tentative_monero_015_release_schedule/ <hyc> sgp already announced it <dEBRUYNE> sgp_: Perhaps worthwhile to mention in the comments why there is a bit of a delay <sgp_> I don't know what happened with testnet <ErCiccione[m]> el00ruobuob_ ignore what i said earlier, we need the logs :P