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Logs for the Kovri and Dev meetings held on 2017-07-09, 2017-07-23, & 2017-08-06
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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Kovri Dev Meeting Held on 2017-07-09
summary: Brief review of what has been completed since last meeting, discussion of meta issues, and code & open tickets discussion
tags: [dev diaries, i2p, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 9th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<anonimal>** 1. Greetings
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<anonimal>** 4. Open Meta issue review https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues
**\<anonimal>** 5. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** 6. Any additional meeting items
**\<anonimal>** 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<anonimal>** Hello! :)
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** hi
**\<rehrar>** Yo
**\<ArticMine>** hi
**\<anonimal>** Hi MoroccanMalinois rehrar ArticMine
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony too?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** yes
**\<anonimal>** Hi fluffypony
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<anonimal>** On my end: testnet development and related collab with MoroccanMalinois and lazygravy + SSU/Ident collab/PR review with MoroccanMalinois (and related research/development), rehrar collab for his site related work, some collab with serhack/ericcion Italian translations for kovri-site, email + PR collab + R&D with rbrunner on the windows InnoSetup installers, Monero project work (monero svn to git for
**\<anonimal>** unbound), work with pigeons on setting up kovri.i2p (now online!), answer various IRC/reddit Q&A + related collab.
**\<rehrar>** This past week was launching the Monero website. Now that's basically done.
**\<anonimal>** Some various things here and there, I2P/Tor family node research and more.
**\<anonimal>** Some French + Russian kovri-site translations are in the works, they are in the PR pit.
**\<anonimal>** Same with kovri repo, I have yet to review the new MM PR's.
**\<anonimal>** Did we miss anything else?
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<anonimal>** I'm here, checked-in! MoroccanMalinois is here. Yay!
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** i will be ok with a milestone in next meeting if last PR's get merged :)
**\<anonimal>** Excellent, I'm sure they will.
**\<anonimal>** re: FFS check-in, MoroccanMalinois is doing great. I can't review myself, anyone else on point 3.?
**\<anonimal>** Well, I *can* review myself, but that wouldn't be fair now would it? ;)
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** lol
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** lol
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** leave it to the community to review
**\<anonimal>** With the exception of this intermittent week, point 2 shows that I've been active and busy, that I can say the least.
**\<anonimal>** Alright, moving on. 4. Open Meta issue review https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues
**\<anonimal>** Starting from the top down, #80
**\<anonimal>** rehrar, any news on that front?
**\<anonimal>** #77 and #78, fluffypony what do you think?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** checking
**\<rehrar>** Sorry. Afk 2 min
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** what's a topic
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** lol
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** anonimal: won't web hooks for -site and -docs be too distracting?
**\<rehrar>** This week is all Kovri for me.
**\<rehrar>** I'll be writing the brief tomorrow and presenting it
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony: well, not for me: it would be helpful because of the sometimes very large notification lists I get in github.
**\<rehrar>** I'll also be importing the tech from the new Monero website to Kovri. That which is applicable.
**\<anonimal>** Awesome rehrar
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony: is it too much?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** I don't mind activating it, it's your call :)
**\<anonimal>** Can we give it a trial run?
**\<anonimal>** (e.g., do it until too many people complain)
**\<serhack>** Hey anonimal
**\<serhack>** How are you?
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony: re: topics, quick link https://help.github.com/articles/classifying-your-repository-with-topics/
**\<anonimal>** Hi serhack
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** tks
**\<anonimal>** serhack: sono stanco, ma we can chat more after the meeting
**\<ArticMine>** On 4 there is Project licensing #85 impacts kovri
**\<serhack>** Oh okay
**\<ArticMine>** Was opened to get feedback
**\<rehrar>** Kovri doesn't have to have the same license as Monero, right?
**\<anonimal>** ArticMine: I took a quick look at that earlier this week, will look again now.
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** rehrar not necessarily, but might be better if we did
**\<moneromooo>** kovri's library part will be used by monero at some point.
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** I don't see a reason to have different licenses
**\<anonimal>** BSD-3, yes I believe so.
**\<anonimal>** re: licensing, no matter what, we'd need to adhere to the licenses of all bundled dependencies, right?
**\<ArticMine>** Yes
**\<ArticMine>** That is part of the issue in 85
**\<ArticMine>** I2P is effectively GPL v2
**\<moneromooo>** "I2P" ? The Java router ?
**\<ArticMine>** Yes java
**\<anonimal>** Huh? Java I2P?
**\<ArticMine>** java makes I2P GPL v2
**\<anonimal>** I don't see how that applies to us as we're not using any of their code.
**\<anonimal>** And most of the important bits are "free (adj.): unencumbered; not under the control of others", whichever license that equates to.
**\<ArticMine>** Not directly to kovri
**\<anonimal>** Open specification is different than implementation in terms of licensing, right?
**\<ArticMine>** but that is why 5 was opened to deal with this discussion
**\<ArticMine>** 85
**\<anonimal>** If monero goes dual-license, then we must?
**\<ArticMine>** Not necessarily
**\<anonimal>** Ok. I'll need more thought on this. I can add to the next agenda too. Does anyone have any strong feelings on this now?
**\<ArticMine>** I think it is best if we discuss it on Github under 85
**\<ArticMine>** Then we can look at it in the next meeting
**\<rehrar>** I have strong feelings to go proprietary.
**\<moneromooo>** er, we would not do that.
**\<rehrar>** But aside from that let's move on.
**\<rehrar>** I kid.
**\<anonimal>** ArticMine: ok.
**\<anonimal>** re: #63, rehrar did you figure out your git branching issue?
**\<rehrar>** Web launch took priority.
**\<rehrar>** We've been feverishly working on it and it is done for now. I've been reading into branches yes.
**\<rehrar>** Sorry, also headed to Mexico atm. :/ So my replies will be intermittent.
**\<rehrar>** Should be resolved in the next two days.
**\<anonimal>** I haven't made any new contributions to it yet so I don't think it's done for now ;)
**\<rehrar>** No, I meant the website
**\<rehrar>** Working in the website and the site is done for now.
**\<anonimal>** Ok
**\<anonimal>** re: #46, fluffypony are we still scheduled for the 20th?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** I have no idea - I don't have it in my calendar, has someone checked with Shay?
**\<anonimal>** Eek, I thought he sent an email after he posted in #46
**\* anonimal** will ping him right now
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** tks
**\<anonimal>** I have a feeling he may have been waiting for more responses.
**\<anonimal>** #43, hmm
**\<rehrar>** This week. ;)
**\<rehrar>** First step is to nail down #80 imo
**\<rehrar>** Because then I can start producing some material.
**\<anonimal>** I think rehrar had thoughts on that area. Sounds like everyone is at max capacity at the moment though.
**\<anonimal>** Ok
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony, is #12 still applicable?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** checking
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** yes - label bot took precedence
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** but we'll pick that up after it's deployed
**\<rehrar>** Spoke to @fluffypony, could be resolved as early as next week
**\<rehrar>** Over one year ago. :P
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** lol
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** we had to choose a mail provider
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** that took multiple face-to-face meetings
**\<anonimal>** Oh neat, label bot is online
**\<rehrar>** Can we give him a better name?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** only in meta right now
**\<moneromooo>** Oooh, where is the documentation ?
**\<anonimal>** Oh lol, I see, rehrar quoted my kovri comment from March 16th, 2016, heh X)
**\<anonimal>** fluffypony: so #12 is applicable but not finished?
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** yes
**\<anonimal>** Ok
**\<i2p-relay> {-fluffypony}** @rehrar ask pigeons
**\<rehrar>** Will do.
**\<anonimal>** #9 #19 #29 #30 are pigeons territory I believe.
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on this point (meta issue review)?
**\<anonimal>** #24 #26 #27 will be useful. ajs waits patiently on #27. We can eventually make a big move on #27 when the time comes. That should be fun.
**\<anonimal>** Out of time, 5. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** Nothing pressing at the moment aside from the open PR's which will be reviewed.
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on 5.?
**\<anonimal>** 6. Any additional meeting items
**\<anonimal>** Nothing from me at the moment. ArticMine how urgent was meta #85 in terms of coming to a resolution?
**\<rehrar>** I think we gucci.
**\<ArticMine>** I would give it at least two weeks
**\<ArticMine>** Once we see discussion / comments
**\<rehrar>** K. Going to be crossing soon, so I'm out for now. Cya all Kovri Peeps.
**\<ArticMine>** It was promoted by a Monero dependency going to a copyleft
**\<anonimal>** Ok
**\<anonimal>** 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<anonimal>** Same time, two weeks from now?
**\<anonimal>** rehrar will you be back by then?
**\<rehrar>** It's a day trip.
**\<rehrar>** I live like right next to the border.
**\<rehrar>** Ill be back before my day is over, and right to work tomorrow.
**\<anonimal>** Oh, alright, then we'll keep the usual meeting date/time.
**\<anonimal>** Thanks everyone :)
**\<endogenic>** thanks anonimal :)

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---
layout: post
title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-07-09
summary: Discussion of open PRs and issues, 0MQ, reimagining the FFS, 0MQ, and miscellaneous
tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 9th, 2017*
# Overview
An overview [can be found on MoneroBase](https://monerobase.com/wiki/DevMeeting_2017-07-09).
# Logs
**\<fluffypony>** 1. Greetings
**\<fluffypony>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<fluffypony>** 3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<fluffypony>** 4. Reimagining the FFS (discussion)
**\<fluffypony>** 5. Any additional meeting items
**\<fluffypony>** 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<fluffypony>** going to skip 1 because I think we're all mostly here
**\<fluffypony>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<fluffypony>** loads of stuff, lots of PRs in process and getting close to merge
**\<fluffypony>** and then the new website of course
**\<fluffypony>** 3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<fluffypony>** so I'd like to just have a quick step through some PRs that are still in the wings
**\<hyc>** been getting deluged by readline and new sync commits
**\<fluffypony>** #1936: any input?
**\<moneromooo>** It's marked as do not merge, so I've not looked in ages. Not sure whether revler's still around.
**\<hyc>** He commented 9 days ago to close it in favor of #2055
**\<pero>** ^
**\<fluffypony>** oh I missed that
**\<fluffypony>** thanks hyc
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Which is merged already :-P
**\<hyc>** even better ;)
**\<nioc>** moneromooo: yes revler is still around
**\<fluffypony>** ok - 2023 is waiting until after the Sept fork, right?
**\<moneromooo>** Yes.
**\<fluffypony>** ok
**\<fluffypony>** #2044: tewinget, there are pending comments
**\<fluffypony>** maybe we can get this merged sometime in the next century
**\<dEBRUYNE>** tewinget commented on that here fwiw
**\<dEBRUYNE>** \<tewinget> dternyak: seems reasonable. it'd have to be on a case-by-case basis as some other things are ramping up to keep me a little busier, but for now I plan to have all the suggestions / notes from moneromooo addressed by the end of today.
**\<moneromooo>** What concerns me is that there were misc commits adding/changing RPC, and some of the stuff (ie, getinfo) is kinda reverting those.
**\<nioc>** fluffypony: tewinget said he would deal with it by the end of the day
**\<moneromooo>** It might be a pita to go through everything to check all is ported.
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: we'll run both JSON RPC and 0MQ in parallel for the moment anyway
**\<fluffypony>** so that should reveal it
**\<fluffypony>** #2056: needs to be backed up by a final MRL write-up
**\<fluffypony>** which I believe is WIP
**\<fluffypony>** kenshi84: ^^
**\<knaccc>** i.e. 2056 should not be merged prior to an MRL being published?
**\<jollymort>** speaking of which, wouldn't it be simpler to c&p the write-up from #2056 into a .md file?
**\<jollymort>** i mean, it's all there; but not in fancy TEX format
**\<fluffypony>** @jollymort nobody wants to review it unless it's in fancy TeX :-P
**\<hyc>** phototypesetter-ready copy or go home
**\<fluffypony>** lol
**\<fluffypony>** ok everything else is still WIP
**\<hyc>** Is this a good time to mention, https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/85 still hasn't gotten much feedback
**\<hyc>** which is a bit surprising, considering the intensity of the IRC chat
**\<ArticMine>** Yes this needs feedback
**\<ArticMine>** Project licensing
**\<moneromooo>** Those can get merged: 2126 2131 2132 2133 (if diff agrees) 2135 2140 2142
**\<moneromooo>** Some newer ones are also simple, but too new I guess.
**\<fluffypony>** moneromooo: tks
**\<fluffypony>** hyc: cross-post it to Reddit maybe?
**\<moneromooo>** 2138 too if someone is qualified to review (I am not).
**\<fluffypony>** ok
**\<hyc>** hmm. reluctant to face the low signal-to-noise ratio on reddit with that ticket, but perhaps that's the only way to get eyes on it
**\<fluffypony>** anything else on this or can we move ahead?
**\<moneromooo>** I'd like to get guinea pigs for https://github.com/moneromooo-monero/bitmonero/tree/sync :)
**\<moneromooo>** It's mostly working fine (pending iDunk's latest test).
**\<iDunk>** ...ahem...
**\<moneromooo>** :/
**\<fluffypony>** lol
**\<moneromooo>** Well, maybe later.
**\<hyc>** would be nice to include a script to monitor network stats
**\<vtnerd>** moneromooo : I have a review in progress of that branch that I hope to get out
**\* iDunk** envisions more #2149 commits :)
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, I've got to squash before it's reviewable.
**\<hyc>** and quantify difference in bandwidth usage
**\<vtnerd>** ah so its not reviewable?
**\<vtnerd>** oh you mean squash the commit history
**\<hyc>** the commit msgs are all so enlightening so far ;)
**\<moneromooo>** Well, if you look at the diff itself, it should be. But it's a lot of shitty commits atm.
**\<moneromooo>** hyc: there's a new sync\_info command which kinda does that.
**\<hyc>** oh, cool
**\<hyc>** but you'd also need that cmd in a before- patch, for comparison
**\<mattcode>** can we frame the commit messages from #2149 and put them in a gallery?
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, it doesn't really apply before the patch. I expect people would just time a sync before and after.
**\<hyc>** :D
**\<hyc>** I think we could just grab ifconfig stats or something instead.
**\<hyc>** but whatever
**\<moneromooo>** I used iftop.
**\<moneromooo>** A bit handwavy though.
**\<moneromooo>** But at some point after startup, it's the CPU that's the bottleneck.
**\<pero>** nethogs does it per process
**\<hyc>** ok. that's a good position to be in then.
**\<fluffypony>** ok
**\<fluffypony>** moving on?
**\<iDunk>** Damn monero users. It would sync in no time if only there weren't any transactions.
**\<hyc>** Who is familiar with Docker to review #2138?
**\<hyc>** obviously I've already done those steps manually, to build Android binaries.
**\<pigeons>** I'll take a look, but I find new docker oddities and workarounds daily
**\<hyc>** cool
**\<tewinget>** oh dear, late. sorry about that.
**\<hyc>** ok I guess that's it for open tickets
**\<tewinget>** on my laptop; idk if I ever checked if I got my irc set up right on here; hyc ACK if you see this.
**\<hyc>** tewinget yes?
**\<tewinget>** kk
**\<fluffypony>** ok
**\<fluffypony>** 4. Reimagining the FFS (discussion)
**\<moneromooo>** So... moving on... luigi1111, any news about N-1/N multisig theory ? :)
**\<moneromooo>** nevermind
**\<fluffypony>** so
**\<fluffypony>** the FFS has worked fine the last few years, but we need to formalise some of the processes
**\<fluffypony>** for eg. what do we do with over-funding? currently we put it into the general fund and then use that for future FFS proposals
**\<fluffypony>** but I'm open to suggestions
**\<rehrar>** I wrote something up for it, and it had mixed feedback. https://github.com/rehrar/meta/tree/master/FFS
**\<rehrar>** A good deal of feedback said it was too formal, and in the Terms the Conclusion should go at the top as an Intro instead, but yeah. Any feedback is welcome. :)
**\<moneromooo>** Maybe there could be a running "monero core team" ffs, with \<pinky up> 1 million monero limit...
**\<hyc>** does that mean the next FFS proposal that gets submitted automatically gets a head start?
**\<fluffypony>** hyc: we give every FFS proposals a head start anyway
**\<hyc>** ok
**\<fluffypony>** also pero had some thoughts
**\<fluffypony>** iirc on time frames and so on
**\<pero>** hmmm yea i could look at this
**\<pero>** timeframes and scope i'd like to see more detailed in my SOWs than i have seen so far in the FFSs
**\* tewinget** runs and hides
**\<pero>** ;)
**\<pero>** it's really hard to manage work if these things arent defined
**\<pero>** and mediation/dispute resolution is impossible
**\<pero>** what i was thinking really was to have some sort of template for prospective fundraisers
**\<gkruja>** maybe have 2 week sprints where the devs report there work so people know thats its being worked on actively even though the time frame is pushed back due to difficulties that could come up?
**\<tewinget>** "sprints" ...
**\<pero>** -\_-
**\<moneromooo>** You run if you want dude. I'm coding.
**\<tewinget>** gkruja, other than the term "sprints" which has a bit of a negative connotation from what I can tell, that doesn't seem like a bad idea.
**\<pero>** maybe 2 weeks isnt that bad to have it coincide with the dev meetings - but not all FFS work is dev wwork
**\<pero>** yea precisely tewinget
**\<fluffypony>** milestones are the reporting periods
**\<mattcode>** The Monero Enterprise Alliance needs to promote agility in the workplace, so we should all sprint every two weeks.
**\<fluffypony>** mattcode: hence the creation of MEAT
**\<tewinget>** we know how fluffypony loves his MEAT.
**\<pero>** well i typically insert checkpoints before milestones in projects
**\<fluffypony>** the problem with milestones is that they aren't always backed up by timeframes
**\<pero>** so i know if my milestones arent going to be hit
**\<pero>** and something can be actively done about it
**\<fluffypony>** pero: that might work, but might also be too formal, we need to balance it with it being accessible to part-time contributors
**\<hyc>** and what are our choices of things that can be done about it? Should we have a list of those spelled out?
**\<pero>** usually solutions arent that clear cut ;p
**\<pero>** might just be a matter of documenting a pattern of missed deadlines
**\<gkruja>** the progress updates could be determined on a per project basis
**\<endogenic>** better would be to list potential problems
**\<endogenic>** answers w/o the problems are sure not to match
**\* tewinget** runs and hides again
**\<pero>** ;p
**\<rehrar>** In my write up, the contract that was funded is the active contract, and if a change needs to be made for reasons then it needs to be brought before the community where the reasons for change and the proposed changes are brought up, and the community can decide whether it is acceptable or not.
**\<fluffypony>** rehrar: but then where's the forum for that? the dev meetings?
**\<rehrar>** Or community meeting
**\<rehrar>** Whichever is more appropriate
**\<rehrar>** Dev meeting for coding things, community for non-coders things
**\<pero>** well the missed deadline example is from 'real world' tewinget ... usually you need a documented pattern like that if you want to sever a contract and fire someone
**\<pero>** bring on a new resource/vendor
**\<fluffypony>** yeah true, I think the dev workgroup is better suited to analysing whether something is acceptable or not
**\<rehrar>** And as long as it's announced that a decision will be made in the upcoming meeting well beforehand, there should be no complaints that someone wasn't able to be present to vote.
**\<endogenic>** voting is a tricky concept
**\<moneromooo>** OTOH, decision ought to be in the hands of the donators for that particular project. Maybe I need to code some voting thing where one can prove they paid to a ffs...
**\<pero>** another thing with better defined scope/schedule/budget
**\<rehrar>** And that's a good point Moneromooo, should a person who didn't donate have any sway in the vote?
**\<pero>** is that we can manage what happens when 'contractors' go over budget
**\<pero>** tweinget and rehrar surely went much over what they estimated
**\<endogenic>** i don't think voting should be used, personally, unless it's limited to people who are actually qualified
**\<pero>** and unhappy resources are poorly performing resources from my experience
**\<rehrar>** I did?
**\<ArticMine>** Yes but should it be donators overall or donators to a specific FFS?
**\<iDunk>** When I donated to moneromooo's latest FFS, I was late and he was already funded. I donated anyway and wished I had a way to direct the donation to him anyway.
**\<ArticMine>** I mean we are putting general funds into these
**\<endogenic>** we only need to resort to voting in the absence of being able to determine what the problem actually is
**\<endogenic>** in any given case
**\<rehrar>** Can we vote via masternode?
**\<endogenic>** genius
**\<fluffypony>** lol
**\<moneromooo>** I didn't say anything becuse I am this biased, but Alice donating to Bob's clearly shows the intent.
**\<fluffypony>** soon™
**\<moneromooo>** \*thus
**\<pero>** so the FFS should have an ability or mechanism for the contractor to demonstrate a need for increased budget as well
**\<pero>** and the excess donations can be used partly for this 'contingency fund'
**\<endogenic>** one problem is that it will be difficult to achieve consensus on what the problem is if some people who are voting have an interest in people not agreeing that such a thing is a problem
**\<rehrar>** Maybe we can tackle this in Community Meeting too.
**\<endogenic>** so there needs to be some kind of standard about what is more important - maintaining those interests, or the solution to the actual problems
**\<fluffypony>** pero: increased budget = new proposal
**\<hyc>** dunno. as I see it, FFS means you pitch a flat rate for a project. Then how you manage your time is your own business, but there's no such thing as a budget overrun
**\<tewinget>** pero: on that note, I had trouble deciding originally for the zmq thing whether to do hourly milestones or progress milestones. I think requiring both might be a good idea. Either one can be the milestones for payouts, but the other should be tracked for progress as well imo.
**\<tewinget>** I'm just going off of "what would I do differently".
**\<moneromooo>** FTR, the kovri meeting is just starting too.
**\<hyc>** ah we need to wrap this up then
**\<gkruja>** if that's it then i can post my small gallery again for you guys and all the nice people on Reddit to see
**\<gkruja>** http://imgur.com/a/mluUb
**\<moneromooo>** I'll still be around in an hour :)
**\<moneromooo>** (to prod luigi, arf arf)
**\<endogenic>** see y'all again in 2 weeks?
**\<luigi1111>** making lunch :-)
**\<tewinget>** I'll be out cold in like 5 minutes. I'll update sometime tonight (well, tomorrow morning/early afternoon probably for you EU folks -- I seem to be on like GMT - 10 as far as sleep goes)
**\<fluffypony>** yup
**\<fluffypony>** two weeks™
**\<pero>** i think for defined deliverables, say like zmq
**\<pero>** just a scope table would go a long way in making it more manageable
**\<pero>** scope item | work effort | delivery eta
**\<dternyak>** moneromooo: OTOH, decision ought to be in the hands of the donators for that particular project. Maybe I need to code some voting thing where one can prove they paid to a ffs...
**\<dternyak>** I had a similar though, but then you run the risk of the vender funding a majority of their own FFS so that they could have majority vote on if they are fired.
**\<dternyak>** thought\*
**\<endogenic>** ^
**\<endogenic>** or any of many other possibilities
**\<moneromooo>** Interesting point.
**\<hyc>** if they're majority funder of their own project... what's the problem?
**\<endogenic>** they could crowd others out, for one
**\<moneromooo>** But then it'd be expensive and nobody would pitch in for the rest ?
**\<dternyak>** they can steal the other 49% of peoples money by never firing themselves
**\<endogenic>** even if they aren't hiring themselves, one group can still fund projects and make the same issue
**\<dternyak>** yes, there are several flaws
**\<endogenic>** and as for having people in general vote on stuff... has anyone heard of "bread and circuses?" it's commonly known that people tend to choose what's convenient or what might give them temporary gain even at the expense of future survival
**\<moneromooo>** Oh, anonimal's kovri.i2p mention made me remember a couple people said it'd be nice to have a hidden service (and eepsite) for getmonero.org. Leading by example :)

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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-07-16
summary: Work groups and IRC channel reorganization, meeting structure, slogan, user guides, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 16th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<rehrar>** Heyo everyone! It's 18:30 UTC, so it's time to start. I'd like to extend a huge welcome to our third Monero community meeting!
**\<rehrar>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/86
**\<rehrar>** Monero Community meetings intend to be a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We plan to use this meeting and future meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
**\<rehrar>** Note: this meeting may go over, since there are many topics to discuss today. If you must leave early, you will only miss the open idea and forced discussion time.
**\<rehrar>** that was 0. Introduction btw
**\<rehrar>** 1. Greetings
**\<reymonero>** Hey
**\<rehrar>** perfect! :D
**\<rehrar>** With this amount of discussion, we may actually finish on time.
**\<reymonero>** Possibly
**\<rehrar>** Alright then, let's move on.
**\<jonathancross>** Hi :-) Just lurking here...
**\<rehrar>** 2. Work groups and IRC channel reorganization
**\<rehrar>** Some people in the community, including anonimal, have voiced concern that the community discussion channels are getting too fragmented. He suggests creating #monero-chat and moving these meetings and discussion to #monero.
**\<reymonero>** Seems sensible
**\<pero>** this channel does seem redundant
**\<pero>** need moderation in #monero
**\<shillosopher>** \^
**\<rehrar>** Ok, let's discuss that. What would healthy moderation look like in #monero?
**\<reymonero>** Meeting discussion only?
**\<pero>** banning fib for starters
**\<thrmo>** lol
**\<4matter>** \^
**\<kico>** hi guys
**\<4matter>** hi
**\<rehrar>** hey kico
**\<thrmo>** you can't moderate it to meeting discussion only
**\<vdo>** well at some point if #monero gets too crowded it may be necessary, but doesn't look like it
**\<kico>** hi 4matter rehrar!
**\<thrmo>** some users might go there to ask legit questions about stuff not meeting related
**\<4matter>** :)
**\<pero>** having the meeting in a designated channel isnt a bad idea
**\<shillosopher>** thrmo, agreed
**\<rehrar>** indeed so thrmo, hence having a space for meetings like this entails a separate space? or we bite the bullet and allow potential interruptions to the meetings?
**\<pero>** no this meeting shouldnt monopolize #monero
**\<thrmo>** i think #monero is just fine, as is, to host the meetings
**\<pero>** have the meeting elsewhere; moderate #monero; deprecate this channel
**\<rehrar>** Some of the proposed channels include: #monero, #monero-community, #monero-meta, #monero-chat, and #monero-support.
**\<reymonero>** maybe just a monero-meetings should be created and used exclusively as such?
**\<thrmo>** disagree pero, #Monero is where the community should meet and thats where more people can be reached
**\<thrmo>** it seems evident to me that the meetings should be there.
**\<pero>** why would we monopolize that channel for a few hours
**\<pero>** if the meeting can be held elsewhere
**\<pero>** what advantage is there to having the meeting in #monero
**\<thrmo>** that channel sometimes is dead for hours
**\<pero>** but sometimes its not
**\<thrmo>** anyway, it's besides the point
**\<pero>** if someone has a question are they to wait for the meeting to finish?
**\<thrmo>** #monero is the central community channel, it's were you can reach the greatest amount of people
**\<ArticMine>** People know where to find the community meeting
**\<reymonero>** I didnt until now
**\<pero>** if people want to participate in the meeting they can join a separate channel
**\<reymonero>** i went straight to monero-dev
**\<thrmo>** pero, no, they can ask their questions
**\<rehrar>** I agree ArticMine. As long as it is posted in advance, I don't think it's a huge issue to have it in another place.
**\<pero>** idk thats not realistic
**\<ArticMine>** Initially so did I
**\<pero>** i wouldnt ask a question in the middle of an ongoing meeting
**\<pero>** thats just rude
**\<reymonero>** General protocol is to ask specific questions in the moment and off topic after the meeting
**\<pero>** and odds are the question wont be seen/answered
**\<rehrar>** Besides, the point of Monero Community meetings isn't to engage everyone, but the people who want to be a part of improving the Monero community experience. At least in my opinion.
**\<rehrar>** Everyone is welcome for sure, but it's not necessarily a meeting for everyone, if you catch my meaning.
**\<reymonero>** \^
**\<Febo>** actualy there were moments when people were anoying on #monero and even when asked to join other sub monero IRCs more apropriate for their talk they ignored that. But I only remeber few such moments. We have lots sub IRC and they should be forwarded there if not, they should be temp baned.
**\<rehrar>** Any further thoughts?
**\<vdo>** maybe doing an announcement in #monero about this channel few times before would do
**\<Dojixo>** We could just announce the meeting/s in #monero while it is alive, and leave #monero for discussions while the meeting/s is alive
**\<thrmo>** we restrict though, you don't need to engage a select few, why create parallel channels were info gets split, when you could have engaged like 10 more people that you wouldn't engage otherwise?
**\<ArticMine>** I say keep it here ans announce it
**\<rehrar>** that seems reasonable, although there is a reddit post and GitHub issue
**\<Guest4186>** but do the newbies always know if there is a meeting underway? i think one free-for-all and one meeting/topic exclusive channel makes sense, but more is overkill imo
**\<Guest4186>** so two in total
**\<rehrar>** So is anyone aware of the idea of work groups that is currently being worked on?
**\<shillosopher>** Guest4186 fib is that you?
**\<thrmo>** lol
**\<reymonero>** Idea of work groups?
**\<shillosopher>** just askin
**\<rehrar>** A work group is a small group where people can get together for different purposes and with different goals. There can be a design work group, a marketing work group, a web development work group, etc. Basically a mini-community where newcomers can easily identify where they can help and can get started
**\<rehrar>** each work group can have their own goals and things that they want to accomplish. Monero Community, long term, is a work group where people can come together with goals for managing an excellent community experience
**\<reymonero>** ohh i see.. i thought you meant idea.. you mean the scale of groups we have here?
**\<rehrar>** I am currently playing point person on identifying open-source self-hosted software that will help faciliate this. Things like MatterMost, Taiga, Weblate, etc
**\<rehrar>** The idea is that each work group can have a space to discuss things that need to be done.
**\<rehrar>** Basically look at #monero-dev. Theya re basically a work group, and can get annoyed if people pop into their channel and start talking about non-devvy things
**\<rehrar>** while the solution may not be more and more IRC channels, eventually, each work group should be treated with the same respect to have a space where they can talk about their group's goals
**\<reymonero>** Agreed
**\<rehrar>** and focus on accomplishing them, without having to weed through other discussion
**\<rehrar>** work groups are not up and going yet (although we have some defacto ones in place already like dev and community), but I'll keep you guys posted. There's some exciting stuff on the way.
**\<rehrar>** For now, unless there's other thoughts, I'd like to skip to 5 for the moment, since it has some bearing on the previous discussion as well
**\<rehrar>** 5. Comments on previous meeting structure
**\<rehrar>** Last meeting, we used a structure where there was a forced discussion by topic. Furthermore, we required people to essentially raise their hand and be called upon to ask a question. This allows for a slower yet more thorough discussion.
**\<rehrar>** We would like to hear your thoughts on this sort of structure. It may be used again later in this meeting, though we can change it for future meetings if people dislike it.
**\<rbrunner>** I think that only works if announced crystall-clearly
**\<shillosopher>** I have no issue the way meetings are currently done
**\<rbrunner>** On the fly in the meeting itself it's probably too late
**\<reymonero>** I cant comment because this is my first community-meeting I have been available for... but the premise seems agreeable
**\<ArticMine>** It seems reasonable to me
**\<rbrunner>** It only kind of worked last time ...
**\<jonathancross>** It seems reasonable to me as well.
**\<rbrunner>** Because people were not "briefed" beforehand
**\<rehrar>** Alright. Any other discussion about these community meetings in general? Anything from where they are held to suggestions to criticisms? If so....please raise your hand (o/)
**\<reymonero>** (o/)
**\<rehrar>** go for it reymonero
**\<rehrar>** and we don't need the parantheses \^\_\_\^
**\<reymonero>** so is the conclusion upon these meetings that we are keeping them as seperate entities for now?
**\<reymonero>** sorry
**\<reymonero>** o/
**\<rbrunner>** lol
**\<rehrar>** for now yes, from what I gather
**\<ajs>** \o/
**\<reymonero>** ok
**\<rehrar>** we'll take a look and do further discussion
**\<rehrar>** yes, ajs? XD
**\<ajs>** Are logs going to be kept, if so where would they be posted
**\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE?
**\<rehrar>** https://getmonero.org/2017/07/02/logs-for-the-Community-meeting-held-on-2017-07-02.html
**\<rehrar>** the logs of the last community meeting is here
**\<ajs>** K
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I typically grab them, format them, and lastly commit them to the website
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Should have them up tomorrow
**\<rehrar>** thanks man, you do bomb
**\<rehrar>** any others?
**\<rehrar>** ok then!
**\<rehrar>** 3. Monero slogan – final discussion of ideas
**\<rehrar>** Two weeks ago, the community discussed several thoughts for a new slogan. People voiced their opinion during the meeting and on this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6kz1ha/monero_slogan/
**\<rehrar>** The top two submissions by votes are “Sine secretum non libertas. No freedom without privacy.” and “Privacy matters. Monero.” There may be some concerns that the first slogan may be catering only to libertarians, which is only one of the target demographics.
**\<rehrar>** We have posted a poll here, which I would like to give everyone a moment to answer. It will help gauge whether people like the current options: http://www.strawpoll.me/13447047
**\<pero>** theyre both bad
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Wrt the second slogan, I'd like to suggest to amend it with "use", so it becomes, "Privacy matters, use Monero"
**\<rbrunner>** My little contribution: a long list of all submissions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6kz1ha/monero_slogan/djz7f38/
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I don't like it without use, it sounds a little stiff
**\<pero>** should maybe hire a pro
**\<pero>** instead of design-by-reddit
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Yeah probably worth the money
**\<4matter>** \^
**\<rehrar>** should maybe hire a pero
**\<rbrunner>** I was not aware that the reddit upvotes were meant to decide anything here
**\<rehrar>** simply add a letter to pro. Practically the same thing.
**\<reymonero>** My concern is with the word "secretum" someon else has highlighted that secretois the correct wording
**\<moneromooo>** Who doesn't like freedom... (apart from whoever's in power at any moment in time)
**\<reymonero>** \*secreto
**\<rehrar>** if we get something decides on, it's not like it's never open to change though
**\<pero>** generally ill advised to keep changing slogans
**\<rehrar>** so we may raise the funds to hire a pro, sure, but in the meantime, I don't see how it could hurt to have something
**\<rbrunner>** Don't tell me we won't find something on the nearly 100 proposals
**\<pero>** it dilutes the brand for one, and creates a lot of rework
**\<rehrar>** if you haven't already, vote in the poll, even if you choose the 'something else' option
**\<reymonero>** Could we have a seperate poll to include the secreto instead of secretum?
**\<hyc>** eh, correctness shouldn't be a popularity contest.
**\<rehrar>** if you choose that option, you can have faith that the correct word will be used
**\<reymonero>** ok
**\<hyc>** if secretum is the wrong word it has to be fixed.
**\<pero>** \^
**\<rehrar>** well, pero and hyc bring up good points
**\<rehrar>** should we look into opening a FFS for hiring a branding person?
**\<pigeons>** lol
**\<reymonero>** I just didnt want to pick secretum and it be used knowing it maybe incorrect
**\<rbrunner>** So it's only that one reddit thread for voting? What about the other places where proposals were submitted?
**\<jonathancross>** Thanks rbrunner, that is a great list.
**\<rehrar>** that list is indeed pretty bomb
**\<rbrunner>** thanks
**\<ArticMine>** Why Latin rather than Esperanto?
**\<pero>** \^
**\<pero>** there needs to be more thought put into this
**\<pero>** than just 'i like this one'
**\<reymonero>** \^ agree
**\<jonathancross>** \^
**\<pero>** so far the process seems to be random people think of random stuff
**\<rbrunner>** We are not under pressure with a deadline, right?
**\<pero>** and then people say if they like it or not
**\<rehrar>** of course not
**\<reymonero>** It needs to apply to everyone worldwide aswell... using the word freedom is quite "america" associated
**\<hyc>** Latin - pretty universal. tradition.
**\<rehrar>** we're just slowly dying a painful death in the markets
**\<rehrar>** jk :P no rush at all
**\<4matter>** need a process that leads to a hard deadline
**\<rbrunner>** hyc: Esperanto was meant to be even more universal ...
**\<hyc>** meant to be. I don't believe it's close.
**\<rbrunner>** Did not work out, yeah
**\<rehrar>** and I think Esperanto would be thematic
**\<pero>** in the ad biz, it's generally creative directors that come from the copywriting side that think of slogans
**\<pero>** there should be plenty freelancing on behance or somewhere
**\<4matter>** i'm with pero on this one
**\<4matter>** we're not the experts here
**\<ArticMine>** Some of the paid slogans are awful
**\<reymonero>** \^
**\<4matter>** weak argument
**\<rbrunner>** I disagree. We are the experts. Who else?
**\<4matter>** not branding experts
**\<rehrar>** The ideal would be to have someone with those skills that is within the community that wants to help
**\<4matter>** -\_-
**\<reymonero>** There should be enough people within the community to create and effective slogan... many famous slogans were made as off hand comments
**\<rehrar>** but in the absence of that, we either come up with one by community or hire out, or think it's not a big deal and do nothing. Those are our three options.
**\<gingeropolous>** what are professional slogan makers called
**\<reymonero>** Maybe its just not the time and place at the moment and we should rush it?
**\<4matter>** ask pero
**\<gingeropolous>** so we can put out on reddit "hey is anyone a professional slogan maker"
**\<reymonero>** \*shouldnt
**\<shillosopher>** monero - it always goes down
**\<ArticMine>** Community brainstorming can be a good approach to creating a slogan
**\<pero>** it's generally an ad agency
**\<pero>** or sometimes a specialized branding agency
**\<rehrar>** shillosopher wins
**\<4matter>** ask the folks at dash
**\<gingeropolous>** so in general the idea is to get something different than "secure, private, untraceable" ?
**\<pero>** within the agency it's a copywriting creative director that usually actually writes the words
**\<reymonero>** Yeah what is wrong with that?
**\<shillosopher>** \o/
**\<reymonero>** "secure, private, untraceable" seems to fit the bill perfect
**\<shillosopher>** rehrar you can send the 100 XMR prize to me via tippero
**\<pero>** well i think secure is redundant within that
**\<jonathancross>** Do we want a slogan that appeals to *us* or to potential new users?
**\<pero>** and private and untraceable are basically synonyms
**\<hyc>** IMO secure/private/untraceable only appeals to paranoid fringe.
**\<gingeropolous>** \^
**\<shillosopher>** hyc agreed
**\<hyc>** Also IMO, Monero is the only actual *currency* in the crypto space currently
**\<pero>** so it's not particularly good
**\<4matter>** Monero: Truly Anonymous
**\<rehrar>** as an action step for this point, what does everyone think of putting something out on reddit (and other places) asking if there is a professional slogan maker in our midst? That way things dont just stay in the theoretical.
**\<vdo>** I don't like that\^
**\<rbrunner>** Can't do harm, can it?
**\<rehrar>** This way, we're moving forward in a way that is reasonable, while still being cautious
**\<hyc>** and we should be highlighting that. Monero is money. Bitcoin isn't. ETH isn't.
**\<ajs>** Through there was already a post
**\<pero>** i agree with hyc
**\<vdo>** a (better) slogan should come from the community eventually
**\<4matter>** good point hyc
**\<gingeropolous>** Monero. The first digital currency.
**\<ajs>** \*Thought
**\<moneromooo>** So we move to another problem. How to get everyone to move into the paranoid fringe ?
**\<reymonero>** Monero is money. Bitcoin isn't.
**\<gingeropolous>** that should go over well
**\<reymonero>** sounds great
**\<moneromooo>** I suggest making the NSA spy on everyone, then leak it.
**\<shillosopher>** push fungibility instead of anon as the main feature?
**\<ArticMine>** https://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/the-20-worst-brand-translations-of-all-time.html
**\<hyc>** yes. fungibility first.
**\<pero>** the word fungibility is terrible for a slogan
**\<reymonero>** but many normies dont understand the word fungibilty
**\<vdo>** yup
**\<pero>** no one knows what it means
**\<pero>** and its quite awkward
**\<4matter>** a lot of people are too stupid to know what fungible means
**\<rehrar>** what if we make it user-friendly: fungiebungie?
**\<4matter>** didn't see what u said rey
**\<vdo>** it sounded like malleable to me, the first time
**\<rehrar>** Ok, are there any other thoughts on action steps for this point then?
**\<pigeons>** teachable moment for monero's differentiator
**\<vdo>** Equal?
**\<pigeons>** i know several people who are attracted to the monero community because it doesnt try to over-polish a work-in-progress and have reddit slogan campaigns
**\<4matter>** \^
**\<pero>** yea i can dig that
**\<rbrunner>** Some quite blunt assertion like just a minute ago from hyc is better IMO: the only actual *currency* in the crypto space currently
**\<gingeropolous>** pigeons, :)
**\<reymonero>** yup
**\<4matter>** pigeons FTW
**\<jonathancross>** Monero: no ceremonies, no dev tax, no BS.
**\<shillosopher>** having a nice slogan or w/e does not mean we need to push it hard anywhere
**\<rbrunner>** Just giving adjectives is too techy
**\<vdo>** Moar bitcoin that bitcoin
**\<pigeons>** yes monero should have a good slogan shillosopher I agree
**\<4matter>** Monero: Nothing to look at.
**\<hyc>** Moneyfor the digital age
**\<reymonero>** lol
**\<frantzm>** Monero: currency with fluffy ponies included
**\<rehrar>** I like that hyc
**\<shillosopher>** Monero: Its like it doesn't even exist
**\<reymonero>** hyc sounds good
**\<rehrar>** I had come up with something similar: Private money for a digital world
**\<rbrunner>** It's sometimes also called a "claim". We should go ahead and boldly claim something
**\<gingeropolous>** Monero - the only digital money that functions as money
**\<gingeropolous>** theres a claim
**\<4matter>** Monero: Cash 2.0
**\<rbrunner>** Yesss
**\<rehrar>** alright, shall we put this to rest for now? we can pick it up later. Or we can keep going.
**\<reymonero>** yes
**\<rbrunner>** It has to ripen :)
**\<reymonero>** we can have a brainstorm at the end
**\<rehrar>** alrighty, let's move on
**\<rehrar>** as always, the discussion can continue past the meeting end, and in /r/monerocommunity
**\<rehrar>** 4. User guides
**\<rehrar>** sgp created this post a little while back, and many people followed through to make user guides! https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6m6eil/we_need_more_user_guides/
**\<rehrar>** Even if there are many user guides available by trusted community members on different sites, it is important to also have documentation on the Monero website. Examples of this include the Moneropedia, which is more likely to be cited by news sites than a contributed site.
**\<rehrar>** To wrap up this short section, please contribute to user guides! Examples including smart mining in the GUI, connecting to a remote node in the GUI, and updating the guide to prove a payment was made.
**\<rehrar>** I've created a simple easy-to-follow (at least I think) way to make User Guides in the new website
**\<rehrar>** there's actually lots of things you can do here: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/blob/master/README.md
**\<rehrar>** anyways, that's that
**\<rehrar>** 6. Upcoming events
**\<rehrar>** Over the next 2 weeks, sgp will have talks in Helsinki, Stockholm, and Oslo. I do not know of other Monero events at this time. Please follow /r/MoneroCommunity to see postings of these events.
**\<rehrar>** He's also looking for someone from the Paris area to contact him, since he hopes to work with them to on a presentation.
**\<rehrar>** He's sorry he couldn't be here btw
**\<rehrar>** If you have any events about Monero coming up, let us know. Otherwise, we can move on to the next topic.
**\<reymonero>** o/
**\<rehrar>** yes reymonero?
**\<reymonero>** just a suggestion... would it be preferable for people to create a presentation that we could all use rather than individual presentations?
**\<rehrar>** thoughts?
**\<reymonero>** a default presentation as such
**\<rbrunner>** Or at least something that one takes as starting point
**\<rbrunner>** Depending on the event at hand
**\<reymonero>** \^
**\<rehrar>** I'm sure sgp and fluffypony won't sue you if you lift some of their stuff, but that's a good idea
**\<rbrunner>** I think that could be useful
**\<pero>** the deck pony uses is really good
**\<hyc>** might be helpful, sure. do we have archives of previous prezos already?
**\<reymonero>** not that i know of
**\<reymonero>** a repo of presentations would be really nice
**\<rehrar>** maybe it would fit in the meta repo?
**\<cryptochangement>** \^ that sounds good
**\<rehrar>** Alright. Who wants another fun discussion-y topic that we can disagree on?
**\<rehrar>** 7. What to name the GUI/repo (#674)
**\<rehrar>** There is a longstanding discussion over what to name the GUI and repo: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/issues/674
**\<moneromooo>** How about... jaqueeeeeee ?
**\<rbrunner>** Thorny issue
**\<pero>** +1 jaqueeeeeeeeeee
**\<moneromooo>** Too many es.
**\<jonathancross>** How did we come to the original repo name pf monero-core ?
**\<reymonero>** bitcoin-core
**\<rehrar>** We don't have to discuss this now because we're running short on time, but feel free to comment in this github issue
**\<rehrar>** unless we want to get into it
**\<vdo>** jonathancross: it's in the issue
**\<moneromooo>** Or we could leave it as monero-core, and rename monero to monero-hardcore
**\<vdo>** Monedero
**\<rehrar>** this is why we pay moneromooo the big bucks
**\<reymonero>** \^
**\<hyc>** i've always hated calling it -core
**\<vdo>** (spanish for wallet :)
**\<pero>** theres a reason for it
**\<rbrunner>** Yes that's not the core
**\<pero>** i think only pony is capable of articulating though
**\<moneromooo>** Seriously, I'd name it monero-wallet-gui tbh.
**\<hyc>** yeah
**\<rehrar>** but that's just the repo name, right?
**\<reymonero>** non-normie friendly
**\<rehrar>** the wallet iself (like when opened) can have something different so it's not so....ugly?
**\<hyc>** normies don't check git repos
**\<reymonero>** maybe just something like, monero phoenix
**\<rbrunner>** what's a normie?
**\<hyc>** non-developer
**\<pero>** monero blackhole
**\<reymonero>** non-associated person with a specific genre
**\<vdo>** monerum
**\<vdo>** ala electrum
**\<reymonero>** blackhole sound good, but scary
**\<rehrar>** I think we can name the repo something descriptive for the devs, but have the actual wallet be named something fun (and esperanto)
**\<rbrunner>** I have my moneros in the blackhole -- yeah, right
**\<reymonero>** benevolent?
**\<reymonero>** moneroevelent
**\<vdo>** monero-boat
**\<reymonero>** evelent
**\<rehrar>** I personally liked Kerna
**\<reymonero>** sorry i'll stop
**\<reymonero>** kerna sounds good
**\<ordtrogen>** Monero Core ?
**\<rehrar>** or Vidi (Esperanto for View)
**\<needmultisig90>** Montero
**\<reymonero>** Konero
**\<reymonero>** kovero
**\<ordtrogen>** Kronero
**\<rehrar>** alright, moving on. Feel free to reply to the Issue
**\<needmultisig90>** Romano?
**\<reymonero>** o/
**\<rehrar>** 8. FFS formalization I have started the process of making the FFS process more formalized. You can track the progress here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/pull/87
**\<hyc>** The comparison to Mozilla / Firefox is apt
**\<rehrar>** anonimal has already made some good comments that I will be implementing soon
**\<rehrar>** yes reymonero
**\<hyc>** a good name is *just a name* - it doesn't carry the project name or purpose
**\<reymonero>** nevermind all ask after this discussion
**\<rehrar>** Notably, this includes the overview (https://github.com/rehrar/meta/blob/560102ec481bf731cd814138b093b733138c92b8/ffs/overview.md) and terms (https://github.com/rehrar/meta/blob/dbc6e4056f739e9323a2e1e968750dd0337854d6/ffs/terms.md).
**\<reymonero>** i'll
**\<rehrar>** We encourage everyone to make their thoughts heard in a constructive way on GitHub. We will move on now to save time :)
**\<hyc>** ok
**\<rehrar>** We're now overtime for sure, so if you have to leave I understand. All that's left is the Open Ideas time where people can speak freely about stuff they want to improve or see happen in the community
**\<rehrar>** so to those that hafta split, thanks for coming!
**\<rehrar>** for everyone else:
**\<rehrar>** 9. Open ideas time
**\<reymonero>** Just regarding the style of the meeting, would it be acceptable to use a partition to make the logs easier to read
**\<reymonero>** i.e
**\<reymonero>** to section off discussions
**\<rehrar>** Now is open ideas time! Please feel free to discuss any community-related ideas you have. Let's keep up the hand raising for now to keep the discussions easy to follow and focused
**\<rehrar>** dEBRUYNE can this be added as a part of formatting the logs?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Sure
**\<rehrar>** thanks
**\<reymonero>** Great!
**\<rehrar>** anyone have anything to discuss? Make your voice heard.
**\<jonathancross>** As far as the name of the GUI... I'd like to suggest that for most people, the GUI == Monero Wallet.
**\<mugatu>** I heard XMR is ded
**\<mugatu>** is this true?
**\<reymonero>** yes
**\<rehrar>** mugatu we can neither confirm nor deny
**\<cryptochangement>** mugatu totally. Who needs privacy am i right?
**\<mugatu>** rehrar seems sketchy
**\<reymonero>** If someone says it is, it must be correct
**\<hyc>** Monero was created by DARPA, Israel and ... oh wait, that's Zcash
**\<rehrar>** I'm a bad actor
**\<ordtrogen>** hand!
**\<rehrar>** yes ordtrogen?
**\<mugatu>** privacy is a scam that is pushed on those with anxiety
**\<ordtrogen>** I came late but picked up on a meetup in Stockholm. Any details on that?
**\<rehrar>** you can contact sgp for details
**\<ordtrogen>** ok
**\<needmultisig90>** Oh, im planning on making a romano meetup in silicon valley again
**\<rehrar>** he's in slack as sgp
**\<rehrar>** cool, thanks nm
**\<rbrunner>** Just a little one-shot reminder: On reddit, /r/Monero-Community still is not mentioned on /r/monero, in the "RELATED SUBREDDITS" sidebar section
**\<needmultisig90>** Ill add it to xmrtrader too
**\<rehrar>** alright kids, if there's nothing else: 10. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<rehrar>** The next meeting will happen in two weeks on 16 July. Same time (18:30 UTC). Look for another meta issue about it on GitHub. It will not be delayed another week.
**\<rehrar>** 11. Conclusion
**\<rehrar>** That's it everyone. Thanks for coming. Thanks for the great discussions.
**\<rehrar>** I can only speak for myself, but I really enjoy the community here.
**\<pero>** i dont get that
**\<pero>** r/monero is literally 'monero community'
**\<pero>** why is there a 'monero community' subreddit
**\<rehrar>** work groups
**\<dEBRUYNE>** rbrunner: Added it now
**\<rbrunner>** Thanks!
**\<hyc>** July 16 is today
**\<shillosopher>** rehrar on july 16 in 2 weeks
**\<reymonero>** This is literally the only community i am involved in that has legitimately great people involved
**\<rehrar>** hahaha oops
**\<jonathancross>** Sorry, what is the date of the next meeting?
**\<rehrar>** July 30th
**\<needmultisig90>** We believe in something bigger than ourselves
**\<hyc>** the next meeting is *today* :P
**\<needmultisig90>** Namely, huge profits, amirite
**\<rehrar>** we're having the next meeting in a few minutes
**\<cryptochangement>** pero from my perspective, r/monero is ALL things monero, while r/monero-community is specifically about bettering the monero project
**\<rehrar>** please stick around for it
**\<rbrunner>** Will do, it's fun
**\<pero>** it needs a more apt name
**\<rehrar>** #monero-make-everything-better
**\<hyc>** #monero-meta
**\<rbrunner>** Uh, it was already moved on from /r/Monero-Marketing ...
**\<reymonero>** Monero. Its bitcoin. Just better
**\<rehrar>** Marketing will become a work group on its own down the road
**\<pero>** to something even worse
**\<rehrar>** probably... :P
**\<rehrar>** Alright. Meeting over. Thanks for coming!
**\<rbrunner>** Roaring applause
**\<reymonero>** Till next time guys... bye

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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Kovri Dev Meeting Held on 2017-07-23
summary: Brief review of what has been completed since last meeting, discussion of meta issues, and code & open tickets discussion
tags: [dev diaries, i2p, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 23th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<anonimal>** 1. Greetings
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<anonimal>** 4. Meta Issue #27 : Where should we officially host the IRC server?
**\<anonimal>** 5. Open Meta issue review https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues
**\<anonimal>** 6. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** 7. Any additional meeting items
**\<anonimal>** 8. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<anonimal>** SYN -\>
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** hi
**\<anonimal>** ACK \<-
**\<anonimal>** Hi :)
**\<sgp>** Hi!
**\<rehrar>** Hi hi
**\<anonimal>** Hi
**\<ajs>** Sub
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<anonimal>** SSU fixes have been merged, testnet fixes/features, new Inno Setup windows installers!, bash installer update (for all platforms), repo + build fixes/work, doc updates, kovri-docs + kovri-site work, resolinvg kovri-site/#6 (joy),
**\<anonimal>** in addition to that (for me) PM collab work with rehrar on various issues. Did I miss anything?
**\<rehrar>** 2. Should we name anonimal Kount Kovri?
**\* anonimal** starts growing fangs
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on 2.?
**\<rehrar>** As for me, wife and I have been pouring lots of time into Kovri logo. We've got something new that's super cool (a new one you haven't seen yet anonimal) and I'm super excited to share it.
**\<rehrar>** But not yet. ;)
**\<anonimal>** Cool, I look forward to seeing it.
**\<anonimal>** Was it a development on what you and I worked on earlier?
**\<rehrar>** Also got my PGP key up to the repo, and am learning not to nuke website history
**\<rehrar>** No, this one is a brand new, fresh idea. But we're developing the other two as well and have a cool direction for both
**\<rehrar>** We'll show you guys soon when they're done and we can get opinions.
**\<anonimal>** Ok
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** i've submited a summary for a milestone
**\<anonimal>** Link?
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** https://forum.getmonero.org/9/work-in-progress/87082/proposal-for-kovri-dev
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** sorry https://forum.getmonero.org/9/work-in-progress/87082/proposal-for-kovri-dev?page=&noscroll=1#post-91407
**\<anonimal>** Thanks
**\* anonimal** clicks
**\<anonimal>** Very nice MoroccanMalinois, congratulations :)
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** thanks :)
**\* anonimal** will comment in that post
**\<anonimal>** When can you start the next milestone (or have you already)?
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** already started, i have a bunch of commits that just needs some run tests
**\* MoroccanMalinois** should be full time on kovri for the next month
**\<anonimal>** Woo hoo!
**\<anonimal>** Sounds great :)
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** :)
**\<ajs>** :+1:
**\<rehrar>** Goodjob.jpg
**\<anonimal>** As for me on point 3., I'm at 94.151666666667 billable hours for this milestone but want to get more things resolved before submitting a summary for review.
**\<anonimal>** Everytime I want to sit down and work on a very specific area, I end up having X number of project responsibilities that take me away from the few things I want to work on for that milestone.
**\<anonimal>** *But* it's all needed, especially the testnet, so it all works out in the end.
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** That's exactly what i hated most when i had a company (with employees)
**\<anonimal>** Note: billable hours *doesn't* include the all the time at my machine when working on the project (most, but not all)
**\<anonimal>** MoroccanMalinois: I hear you!
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** :)
**\<anonimal>** MoroccanMalinois: any thoughts/ideas on how to streamline our productivity?
**\<anonimal>** We're the MEA now. We have MEAT tokens to take care of ;)
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** lol
**\* anonimal** oh wait, we should probably move that topic to the end of meeting, ajs is waiting
**\<MoroccanMalinois>** k
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on 3.?
**\<rehrar>** Nyet
**\<rehrar>** Нет
**\<anonimal>** 4. Meta Issue #27 : Where should we officially host the IRC server?
**\<rehrar>** It's Monero and Kovri right?
**\* moneromooo** listens
**\<anonimal>** This is tricky and requires auth from the core dev team. I don't think we have this written anywhere though we should.
**\<anonimal>** Whoever has the kovri privkeys to the irc server, rules the universe.
**\<ajs>** Got a test server up and running... Current open issues are here: https://github.com/alvinjoelsantos/ircxmr/issues
**\<ajs>** It would be best if one of the core members runs the server
**\<anonimal>** pigeons is running the i2p instance of getkovri, but I wonder if he's up for hosting an irc server too.
**\<moneromooo>** What are the reasons one might want to host the IRC server elsewhere ?
**\<anonimal>** To decentralize pigeons' workload/influence? I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
**\<anonimal>** I don't trust any VPS not owned/ran by/maintained by a monero person.
**\<anonimal>** \*core team or recommendation by core team
**\<moneromooo>** OK, I've found the reason in #27.
**\<moneromooo>** It's just the I2P part.
**\<pigeons1[m]>** I'm assuming an irc server connected only to irc2p wouldnt be a bad resources and maintenance load, unlike a public ircd
**\<anonimal>** lol oh yeah, I gave more reasons https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/27#issue-195122544
**\<anonimal>** pigeons1[m]: yes, I don't think it would be as bad on resources or maintenance compared to a public ircd
**\<anonimal>** I think permissions/jailing could be worked out so a 2nd person can ssh into the box to take care of the ircd instance if needed too.
**\<anonimal>** And of course exclude them from any access to the kovri/i2p privkeys
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Actually i heard from fluffy that the project is getting some infrastructure servers so we should be able to run that
**\<anonimal>** Awesome! Is there an ETA for those machines? Would we have to wait on those before setting up the official ircd instance?
**\<pigeons1[m]>** I dont know. Soon (tm)
**\<rehrar>** I too have an interest in the ETA of the infrastructure servers.
**\<anonimal>** Do we have machine space to start making something official now? pigeons1[m] would you even have the time to start setting that up with ajs?
**\<pigeons1[m]>** I'll start looking into with ajs
**\<anonimal>** Alright. ajs are you ok with that?
**\<ajs>** Okay. Should we go with domain irc.kovri.i2p?
**\<anonimal>** Yes, I believe I already registered that a long while ago. The keys are waiting to be used.
**\* anonimal** checks
**\<anonimal>** Yep.
**\<anonimal>** Once we're all settled on our end is when we'd give notice to #irc2p about our instance and then integrate with the rest of irc2p. Otherwise we would be running a lone irc server.
**\<ajs>** With relays?
**\<anonimal>** Huh?
**\<anonimal>** I don't understand the question.
**\<ajs>** To connect with Slack, bots
**\<ajs>** Or just run solo
**\<anonimal>** Oh, we wouldn't need to do anything about that because those are regular "users" who simply connect.
**\<rehrar>** We gun' be moving from Slack btw. It will die a horrible death that should please the OSS gods
**\<moneromooo>** Oooh, OSS gods. I'll fork my own and play.
**\<ajs>** Got it
**\<anonimal>** That's great news. They will be pleased.
**\<anonimal>** ajs: btw, https://github.com/alvinjoelsantos/ircxmr/blob/master/README.md says "freenet" but that is an actual project/technology. I think you meant "clearnet" instead.
**\<anonimal>** Anyway, we can chat more about that after the meeting.
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on 4. and the irc2p issue?
**\<ajs>** Oops will correct
**\<anonimal>** 5. Open Meta issue review https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues
**\* anonimal** reads
**\<rehrar>** #70 is concerning
**\<anonimal>** https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/46 \<-- the July 27th date has now been officially rescheduled for August 17th
**\<anonimal>** 96boards had to reschedule our July 27th date. I got the email re: Aug 17th and it should be a packed show (at least 15 people on the call)
**\<anonimal>** So we'll monero it up there.
**\* anonimal** checks #70
**\<rehrar>** #43 is dependent on the new logo
**\<anonimal>** re: #70, rehrar what's concerning about it?
**\<rehrar>** Because I'll be putting a sort of "outreach" package together, and I'd like the new branding nailed down.
**\<rehrar>** That it's not closed. :P
**\<anonimal>** lol
**\<pigeons1[m]>** If anonimal types +resolved on a line by itself as a comment it will close in 10 minutes
**\<anonimal>** re: #43, ok, but we really don't need to wait for the logo to resolve #43.
**\<anonimal>** (re: #43, but I don't think anyone will jump at #43 until then anyway)
**\<moneromooo>** The +resolved bot is live now ?
**\<anonimal>** pigeons1[m]: yay, thanks pigeons
**\<rehrar>** Well, other people can Call for Developers too, obviously.
**\* anonimal** \+resolves moneromooo
**\<pigeons1[m]>** moneromooo: for the meta repo it is
**\<moneromooo>** I'm not try /close, nice try :P
**\<moneromooo>** Oh OK.
**\<anonimal>** This meta issuebot is nifty.
**\<rehrar>** Pigeons, am I right in assuming that the new servers mentioned before will also be used for the Taiga and MatterMost?
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Yes
**\<rehrar>** Here you go pigeons: https://imgur.com/gallery/hRHyYNh
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: I enjoyed those test instances of taiga + mattermost.
**\<pigeons1[m]>** :)
**\* anonimal** looks forward to going live
**\<rehrar>** I'm working on an action plan to talk with some local universities and their CS departments regarding Monero/Kovri and will be handing out information packets if I can talk with some professors.
**\<pigeons1[m]>** I would go over that with surae and surang who have a decent connection to acadamia
**\<rehrar>** Maybe even see if they wouldn't be willing to give college credit for a student contributing to the project in a measurable way. I remember when I was in college that professors were looking for opportunities like that in the field (though I was in Biology)
**\<rehrar>** I'll talk to them.
**\<rehrar>** It's shooting high, and may be improbable, but if you never ask you never know.
**\<moneromooo>** s/surang/sarang/
**\<rehrar>** You know what they say, shoot for the moon, if you miss you will be in the deep black void of space and die alone. :(
**\<rehrar>** Anyone know about opensource.com ?
**\<anonimal>** Whoever ends up doing that could also expand into non-CS depts. Monero for all (with a computer).
**\<rehrar>** They run articles every one in a while, and I was thinking about contacting them for maybe asking about what is needed for a Kovri article.
**\<rehrar>** I don't know how much clout it has, but if frequent OSS contributors look at it (or a similar site), then it may bring us to the attention of some potentially interested people.
**\<anonimal>** Media interaction is a probably a topic in it's own right. We're out of time though so let's move it to the next meeting or chat more after the meeting.
**\<rehrar>** Anyways, sorry, just some ideas I've been having regarding outreach to devs.
**\<anonimal>** Anything else on any open meta issues?
**\<anonimal>** 6. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** MoroccanMalinois and I do almost all code discussion outside of meetings. Anyone else on 6.?
**\<anonimal>** 7. Any additional meeting items
**\<rehrar>** No (Spanish for "no")
**\<anonimal>** Nothing from me since we're out of time. rehrar will you post your idea(s) into #43?
**\<rehrar>** Sure thing.
**\<anonimal>** Thank you. We can bring it up at next meeting too if needed (but that sounds like a future issue).
**\<anonimal>** 8. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<anonimal>** August 6th, 18:00 UTC?
**\<anonimal>** (the ususal
**\<anonimal>** )
**\<rehrar>** Ye
**\<anonimal>** Alright, thanks everyone!
**\<anonimal>** And thanks dEBRUYNE for logging these meetings.

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---
layout: post
title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-07-23
summary: Discussion of open PRs and issues, 0MQ, MyMonero/OpenMonero daemon integration, Surae's research, multisig, and miscellaneous
tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 23th, 2017*
# Overview
There is no overview for this week.
# Logs
**\<serhack>** Oh
**\<serhack>** Where is meeting? Here?
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Should be yea
**\<Jaquee>** anyone else noticed a memory leak in monerod from master?
**\<balambala>** Hello there
**\<moneromooo>** erikd did.
**\<serhack>** Jaquee: oh, is memory leak dangerous?
**\<moneromooo>** If you have hints, they're welcome.
**\<rehrar>** so...
**\<tewinget>** talkaboutdangedol...yo, man
**\<Jaquee>** no hints unfortunately. got an OOM crash after running for an hour or two. could've been something else
**\<Jaquee>** i will find out soon enough
**\<rehrar>** fluffypony ArticMine luigi1111 othe luigi1114 moneromooo hyc anonimal tewinget pigeons Jaquee
**\<Jaquee>** did i hear meeting?
**\<Jaquee>** o/
**\<ArticMine>** Hi
**\<rbrunner>** Grüezi mitenand
**\<rehrar>** it seems fluffypony isn't here to run the meeting, or he's on his way. Anyone heard from him?
**\<tewinget>** negative
**\<rehrar>** well, I'm obviously not a dev, so I can't help with the conversation, but the agenda is here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/97 it's pretty normal
**\<vtnerd>** fluffypony is in las vegas according to his tweets
**\<rehrar>** right, he's at defcon
**\<rehrar>** probably gambling
**\<vtnerd>** or no wait, was a few days ago have kept up with that
**\<rehrar>** I'm obviously not qualified to facilitate the things in this meeting, but I can just put each item to discuss, unless someone wants to volunteer
**\* pero** volunteers moneromooo
**\<rehrar>** do it!
**\<tewinget>** I would, but I've tried and I'm shite at it \>\_\>
**\<tewinget>** pero: didn't you say you wouldn't be present for the meeting?
**\<vtnerd>** moneromooo is usually the backup bot
**\<pero>** yea but my plans changed
**\<moneromooo>** So.... ladies and gentlemen... let's start with...
**\<moneromooo>** tewinget
**\<moneromooo>** :)
**\<tewinget>** lol, ok
**\<moneromooo>** 0MQ's kinda ready now, right ?
**\<tewinget>** the daemon's rpc server stuff should be ready to merge, yes
**\<serhack>** Hello
**\<pero>** what's still outstanding if that's ready?
**\<tewinget>** it's not perfect, but "the great is the enemy of the good" and I've structured it such that it doesn't affect anything if something's wonky unless it's crashy...which I haven't seen any evidence of
**\<serhack>** Point 1? Greetings?
**\<moneromooo>** That's good. Can you put a "how to start monerod with 0MQ RPC" in the PR ?
**\<unknownids>** lol serhack
**\<tewinget>** I still need to do testing on the wallet modifications and the rpc client interface.
**\<tewinget>** moneromooo: if it builds, it runs the server :)
**\<tewinget>** the cli flags are self-explanatory
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, then "how to start monerod with original RPC" :)
**\<tewinget>** also the same
**\<tewinget>** hence it's fine to merge
**\<moneromooo>** It runs both at once ?
**\<tewinget>** yes.
**\<moneromooo>** Cool. OK.
**\<tewinget>** this is to avoid really really messy backwards compatibility
**\<tewinget>** later there may be a translation process that can receive old rpc requests and translate/forward them, but for now I think this is good.
**\<moneromooo>** And the missing bits and bobs are fixed (for example, random stuff in getinto) ?
**\<tewinget>** yeah, there's one thing I needed to get clarity on, but it's not a big deal
**\<moneromooo>** Shoot.
**\<tewinget>** that's the get peers bit, as you seemed to imply that this should be changed, but afaict I've mirrored the old/existing RPC in this and it hasn't changed. I mean, I haven't implemented the call anyway, but the struct for the RPC message is what I'm talking about.
**\<tewinget>** may as well have that be what it should in case some intrepid young lad gets bored and wants to add that call.
**\<tewinget>** I've focused on the calls that the wallet uses for now, hence that one's been left for later.
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, peers used to be uint32\_t (IP) and uint16\_t (port) but they're not something (host) and uint16\_t (port).
**\<moneromooo>** OK, sounds good. The missing calls can be added later, that's fine.
**\<pero>** so wallet mods/client interface are largely done too?
**\<tewinget>** right, but if you look at the GET\_PEERS call in the old RPC it's still using uint32\_t IP and uint16\_t port, unchanged.
**\<tewinget>** pero: yeah, it's "done" but I found an issue with synching a testnet wallet around block 900k or so, so there's a bit of debugging to do
**\<tewinget>** but the code is in place, just needs testing.
**\<tewinget>** #2044 doesn't need *as* much testing before merge (just make sure it doesn't crash the daemon) because it only adds optional functionality, it doesn't change any existing functionality
**\<tewinget>** but #2185 needs more testing because I completely refactored how the wallet uses the RPC
**\<moneromooo>** OK, I will check the old GET\_PEERS.
**\<tewinget>** that's why I structured the PRs the way I did :)
**\<Jaquee>** there's some fuckery going on around 900k on testnet
**\<Jaquee>** lots of reorgs
**\<tewinget>** Jaquee: yeah, I noticed that, and one of the chunks of blocks during sync seemed to break things. It'll take me a good bit of time to track it down because it's such a weird bug.
**\<tewinget>** what I really need to do is figure out how to configure gdb to actually print things...I hate it when shit's inlined so gdb can't print it. or optimized out (I need to verify that debug builds are -O0)
**\<pero>** would zmq even be responsible for a sync-related bug?
**\<tewinget>** pero: no, the wallet on that branch bugs out in synching using the old RPC
**\<tewinget>** it's something related to my refactor of how it uses the rpc.
**\<pero>** gotcha
**\<sgp>** Any other questions or should we move on?
**\<tewinget>** oh
**\<pero>** yes i'd like to know what the next steps are here
**\<tewinget>** right
**\<pero>** i was alarmed to see that 10 days passed without zmq-related github activity
**\<tewinget>** so I think merging #2184 and then #2044 now would be good.
**\<tewinget>** #2185 will follow as soon as it's tested and working. all the code is "done" just gotta test it.
**\<moneromooo>** Anyone wants to ask anything else about 0MQ ?
**\<moneromooo>** Next: Jaquee ?
**\<tewinget>** if anyone has questions in the future, just ask whenever
**\<Jaquee>** what?
**\<tewinget>** well, after the dev meeting. carry on :)
**\<moneromooo>** Anything about the GUI or light wallet you want to talk about ?
**\<Jaquee>** ah =)
**\<pero>** does zmq have impact to the gui?
**\<tewinget>** pero: the refactor of how the wallet uses the rpc does
**\<Jaquee>** well. i've been working on openmonero support the last days. making the wallet compatible with both mymonero and openmonero
**\<Jaquee>** there are a lot of new commits in the lightwallet PR
**\<pero>** thats outside of your scope too, i believe, tewinget
**\<Jaquee>** haven't squashed them yet
**\<moneromooo>** Yeah, all this reviewing is starting to kill me, there's a lot of stuff :D
**\<Jaquee>** understandable
**\<moneromooo>** Good stuff though.
**\<moneromooo>** Especially that lovely subaddress stuff...
**\<pero>** there will be a new gui release for september hardfork, Jaquee ?
**\<Jaquee>** the cli and gui releases are supposed to be aligned, so yes.
**\<tewinget>** remind me after the meeting, there's one other thing that we'll need to think about before merging #2044 but we can talk about it later.
**\<pero>** i am wondering if zmq making it into the cli codebase has been identified as work effort for the gui
**\<pero>** potential work effort*
**\<endogenic>** Hey guys, fluffy got caught by timezone difference. Think he may be slammed at the moment but he may pop in to say what's up. Just fyi
**\<pero>** and if some attention needs to be paid into that as the clock is ticking down
**\<endogenic>** Did not mean to interrupt you
**\<endogenic>** Pero
**\* tewinget** gives fluffypony some hair of the dog
**\<pero>** s'ok :)
**\<Jaquee>** i haven't really looked at tewingets new stuff, but afaik it shouldnt affect the gui that much.
**\<serhack>** Hey, I'm developing prestashop plugins
**\<Jaquee>** there are some rpc stuff in wallet api, but most of it arent used
**\<pero>** ok cool just putting it out there
**\<serhack>** I dont know if after that I will write another ffs
**\<tewinget>** I've refactored those bits as well :)
**\<Jaquee>** great =)
**\<moneromooo>** anything else, Jaquee ?
**\<Jaquee>** yes. but i guess i need fluffy to answer it
**\<Jaquee>** i was thinking about mobile release and testing
**\<moneromooo>** OK, we'll be back to you when/if he's around then ?
**\<Jaquee>** if someone is working on apple store and play store stuff
**\<Jaquee>** yes. i'll ping him
**\<moneromooo>** OK. Thanks.
**\<Jaquee>** ok. that's all
**\<moneromooo>** serhack: so, tell us more about what you're doing and what's your progress :)
**\<Jaquee>** oh. one more thing. sorry
**\<moneromooo>** Sure
**\<moneromooo>** one minute serhack please :)
**\<Jaquee>** vtnerd: what's the status on the openmonero/mymonero integration?
**\<Jaquee>** in monerod
**\<Jaquee>** do we have a plan for that?
**\<vtnerd>** not yet really
**\<Jaquee>** ok
**\<vtnerd>** other than I would like to have multiple processes for this for security purposes
**\<vtnerd>** which is what the backend is doing, but I need to make IPC between them easy
**\<Jaquee>** sounds like a good idea
**\<Jaquee>** iirc fluffy said in then january meetup that the backend was going to be open sourced. Any timeline for that?
**\<vtnerd>** not at all, that has not been my direct focus
**\<vtnerd>** I suppose whenever the backend is in better shape :/
**\<Jaquee>** all right. thanks =)
**\<Jaquee>** moneromooo: done
**\<vtnerd>** more recently I've been working on the serialization explosions
**\<Jaquee>** sounds fun
**\<Jaquee>** :P
**\<vtnerd>** so I'll have to make a push to start encoding a version in the archive header so we dont have this issue again
**\<moneromooo>** Would be nice to get them fixed, or at least ensure they're not exploitable, since cold wallet comms use that.
**\<vtnerd>** and try to convince the serialization author to merge something before the 1.65 release
**\<vtnerd>** eh, thats the issue I would to see corrected with serialization. I dont see another way to handle it
**\<vtnerd>** basically with better versioning in the header we get less bug defects, but crafting a file is problematic without changes within boost
**\<Jaquee>** i've missed this. what's the issue?
**\<moneromooo>** Crafting would likely not be defeated by versioning though.
**\<moneromooo>** Jaquee: a crash in boost loading a serialized file.
**\<vtnerd>** https://svn.boost.org/trac10/ticket/9370
**\<Jaquee>** ah. thanks
**\<vtnerd>** our situation is very similar, except its boost::multi\_index is doing it internally. a change by moo on 5/27 changed the serialization type
**\<vtnerd>** moneromooo : that sentence was worded similar. if you meant that its still possible to craft a file if we reject \_newer\_ versions, then I agree
**\<vtnerd>** \*worded strangely
**\<moneromooo>** I just meant a crafted file would claim whatever version leads to the exploit, which is likely whjayt you also meant.
**\<vtnerd>** right you can pretty much do whatever if you can modify the file being read
**\<moneromooo>** OK, we're done on this ?
**\<Jaquee>** yes
**\<moneromooo>** serhack: go ahead then, tell is about your plugins work :)
**\<vtnerd>** as far as mymonero goes, the focus is not yet open sourcing but since its on my mind during the refactor it shouldnt be hell
**\<vtnerd>** hopefully
**\<endogenic>** Vtnerd... a silent hero of monero...
**\<moneromooo>** Hmm, he seemed keen, but also seems not around now.
**\<moneromooo>** endogenic: do you have something you want to talk about ?
**\<endogenic>** Nah not as yet. Soon(tm)
**\<moneromooo>** Alright, thank you.
**\<sgp>** @serhack can always talk about it later, but I know he may want to discuss a way of covering plugin maintenance costs
**\<endogenic>** Really pleased about the lightwallet support
**\<moneromooo>** So, mooo now:
**\<Jaquee>** endogenic: is the mymonero backend issues holding back the mobile/desktop releases currently
**\<Jaquee>** that can wait. go moo
**\<endogenic>** Nah it's not
**\<Jaquee>** k
**\<moneromooo>** I worked on faster/leaner node sync (sync branch) as well as multisig (multisig2 branch right now)
**\<moneromooo>** Both welcome testing :)
**\<moneromooo>** multisig2 has RPC, but that's not been tested much yet, so don't really expect it to work. Wallet commands are what's ready.
**\<moneromooo>** Next... who could have somehting to say...
**\<moneromooo>** Anyone ?
**\<rbrunner>** I have something
**\<rbrunner>** Is something planned already about putting the Windows installer for the GUI wallet into service i.e. at the end offering the Setup.exe as a download on getmonero.org?
**\<moneromooo>** knaccc: kenshi84 ?
**\<Jaquee>** rbrunner: yes, most likely in next release
**\<rbrunner>** September then, right?
**\<Jaquee>** which will happen somewhere between now and hardfork
**\<Jaquee>** yes, around sept
**\<rbrunner>** Ok. I hold my breath :)
**\<Jaquee>** :D
**\<pero>** does the mooning network hash warrant any discussion
**\<moneromooo>** If you have something to say about it... sure.
**\<pero>** eh
**\<pero>** was hoping someone else might have some insight
**\<pero>** :)
**\<Jaquee>** i've noticed the block time has been pretty inconsistent lately
**\<Jaquee>** was thinking it was because the variance in hash
**\<Jaquee>** lot's of 5-10 mins gaps
**\<pero>** it seems to me that botnets could very well be pricing out 'regular' miners
**\<moneromooo>** As long as it's several distinct ones...
**\<pero>** right
**\<pero>** can we tell how centralized the mining is? real centralization could be obfuscated by pools
**\<sgp>** @pero ideally the discovered botnets can have the addresses searched in the pools to determine the hashrate
**\<moneromooo>** Pools might be able to tell, since they know source IPs (unless proxied). You'd have to trust the pools to tell you the truth though :)
**\<pero>** yea...food for thought i guess...
**\<tewinget>** dammit, now I have thought for food...
**\<moneromooo>** Though if hash is from a botnet, IPs don't really give you much.
**\<sgp>** One question: the release is in September. What window do you want to give everyone to upgrade?
**\<moneromooo>** I'd been wondering whether some non-profit oriented large miner might want to crowd out miners.
**\<sgp>** \*hardfork
**\<moneromooo>** Undecided yet. But hopefully more than a week :/
**\<knaccc>** not sure if this is the right time to suggest it, but in preparation for subaddresses, the GUI and CLI should probably recognize the subaddress and integrated subaddress prefixes and display a message that subaddresses are not supported yet, and that they need to upgrade to send to such addresses
**\<moneromooo>** There's not much that needs to go in next fork, so that should not be much trouble.
**\<sgp>** Did we ever agree on the new minimum ringsize?
**\<moneromooo>** That's not a bad idea at all.
**\<moneromooo>** No.
**\<moneromooo>** kenshi84: do you want to make a preliminary patch for this ? It'd include your existing parsing changes, plus error messages on use.
**\<moneromooo>** I don't think kenshi84's around now.
**\<moneromooo>** suraeNoether: what about you ? Tell us about your research.
**\<suraeNoether>** ah, well, good timing actually
**\<sgp>** How should we actually reach consensus on the new minimum number? Running out of time to decide.
**\<sgp>** @surae I don't mean to interrupt you though, carry on :)
**\<suraeNoether>** np, as far as minimum ring size goes, and mitigating EABE... a lot of this would be solved with efficient ring signatures and range proofs.
**\<suraeNoether>** today, I'm coding up some examples of O(sqrt(n)) ring sigs and some efficient range proof algorithms to compare sizes with current set-ups
**\<suraeNoether>** the idea is, if we can manage to fit a ring size of, say, 150, in with each transaction, I don't care how much computing power you have, you're going to be spending a lot of time analyzing monero's blockchain
**\<sgp>** 150? Wow
**\<moneromooo>** Kovri meeting starting in #kovri-dev for those who want to follow both.
**\<suraeNoether>** i would prefer orders of magnitude
**\<suraeNoether>** i would *prefer* a quarter million or more signatories per transaction
**\<ArticMine>** any idea on the trade off ring size, range proof efficiency vs tx size?
**\<moneromooo>** All depends on the constants, doesn't it :)
**\<knaccc>** \o/
**\<suraeNoether>** that's what i'm looking into today, arcticmine and moneromooo, there's a cost to everything
**\<vtnerd>** lol @ that compute time
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Similarly I'm interested in exploring potential privacy drawbacks of not having a fixed uniform ring size
**\<suraeNoether>** so, I have some attack models for EABE. First order estimates suggest a min ring size of like 30 is necessary with 7 churns. Second order estimates suggest as low as 15 is good with a single churn. my third order estimate looks to be somewhere between those two? possibly with more in the ring size.
**\<suraeNoether>** pigeons1[m] this is absolutely something i'm also looking into
**\<suraeNoether>** i like the idea of a uniform ring size if the ring size is very large, say more than 10^2
**\<suraeNoether>** in a world where choices are allowable, a random (with minimum) ring size is preferable to any other given strategy
**\<Jaquee>** disrupting with a question: how do i run monerod with valgrind? i'm getting an "invalid argument" error on startup.
**\<sgp>** @surae do you think a ringsize of 10 is far too low? I didn't expect to consider a jump from 5 to 150/100
**\<Jaquee>** src/blockchain\_db/lmdb/db\_lmdb.cpp:71 Failed to open lmdb environment: Invalid argument
**\<Jaquee>** trying: valgrind /path/to/monerod
**\<Jaquee>** no args. blockchain in default location
**\<moneromooo>** Should work that way.
**\<Jaquee>** that's what i thought too
**\<JollyMort[m]>** in lieu of more research, enforcing some min. in the upcoming HF would be beneficial, no? 5 or 10?
**\<Jaquee>** moneromooo: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/liZxIo25sun2z8d9YTDLbw/raw
**\<suraeNoether>** sgp : in terms of security alone, min ring size 10 would be "safe" for a year or two. but would have *how much* cost on the blockchain, and how much cost in terms of adoption? in lieu of more research, a larger ringsize is only preferably in terms of security, not necessarily in terms of adoptions
**\<pero>** we already enforce a minimum i believe
**\<suraeNoether>** yep, 2
**\<JollyMort[m]>** 3, no? "mixin of 2" iirc
**\<suraeNoether>** oh ringsize 3, mixin 2
**\<suraeNoether>** sorry, terminology
**\<sgp>** @surae do you have any major current concerns with 10? Do you think it is reasonable for now pending research?
**\<suraeNoether>** my concerns come from the cost to the size of the blockchain
**\<suraeNoether>** and hence adoptoin
**\<suraeNoether>** adoption\*
**\<sgp>** afaik the difference between 10 and 5 is very small
**\<suraeNoether>** i advocated large ring sizes years ago, but there is a cost to the blockchain, a huge cost
**\<suraeNoether>** we aren't discussing 10 vs. 5 we are discussing 10 vs. 2
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Better to wait for research instead of arbitrary change
**\<suraeNoether>** er. 3 i suppose
**\<sgp>** Ok, still between 10 and 3 is small
**\<JollyMort[m]>** when the whole discussion started the first idea was to increase to 5 iirc
**\<JollyMort[m]>** so might as well make it 5 vs 3 :)
**\<suraeNoether>** i think the security gain from 3 to 5 is not huge. the security gain from 3 to 10 is much more measurable
**\<endogenic>** I'm with pigeons in that one
**\<endogenic>** On
**\<moneromooo>** You're on pigeons in that one ?
**\<endogenic>** Yeah
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Oh baby
**\<endogenic>** I'm one with pigeons on that too
**\<endogenic>** Two\*
**\<unknownids>** ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
**\<pero>** will there be a security hit if we enforce 10 for a while and then switch to random?
**\<pero>** random as in potentially \<10
**\<suraeNoether>** i'm in agreement with pigeons1[m] and endogenic ... especially if these O(sqrt(n)) signatures end up being nice. because knaccc was talking about n=30 ringsize being relatively reasonable in terms of cost to the blockchain today, and i know the max ringsize demonstrated so far is around 10^3. for the same cost, we could get 900 to 10^6 signatories per ring signature if O(sqrt(n)) hits the shelves, and i'll
**\<suraeNoether>** tell you what: in that scenario, i'd absolutely advocate a minimum 150, and let users decide above and beyond that
**\<endogenic>** There may be a public education issue with switching all around w/o research too
**\<suraeNoether>** pero when i say random i mean "random above a certain minimum"
**\<pero>** gotcha
**\<knaccc>** yeah if a ring size 400 transaction is the same size as a ring size 20 transaction, that'd be incredible
**\<suraeNoether>** right now, the best hope for anonymity is simply more efficient ring sigs, and this set-up is extremely extremely promising
**\<endogenic>** Not that you didnt research it jolly
**\<suraeNoether>** actually we've researched the crap out of htis
**\<endogenic>** Btw jolly i guess that means i have to bump "ringsize" on the mm tx details page by 1 :p
**\<suraeNoether>** we just haven't come up with a formal model of security yet that provides a tractable answer "go with 17, child"
**\<endogenic>** Need more tea leaves
**\<gingeropolous>** well in september we'll at least get ringsize = 5
**\<moneromooo>** Make sure to list any extra crypto assumptions over what monero already assumes.
**\<sgp>** Right now I'm most concerned what we will do for September
**\<suraeNoether>** i'm not totally concerned. i'm... really... really excited about small ring sizes
**\<suraeNoether>** okay, i'll be back later, i'm really glad i could hop in with such good timing on this
**\<moneromooo>** thanks suraeNoether
**\<moneromooo>** anyone else ?
**\<gingeropolous>** oh is it meeting time?
**\<moneromooo>** kovri's
**\<ArticMine>** So next meeting in two weeks?
**\<serhack>** Moneromoo
**\<serhack>** Sorry
**\<serhack>** I was eating
**\<serhack>** Okay
**\<serhack>** Then
**\<moneromooo>** np, go ahead :)
**\<serhack>** My progress are: wordpress plugin is almost completed, I'm developing the verifying (if transaction is okay), I'm also starting the development of Prestashop plugins
**\<serhack>** After that, I will write another FFS (I will request like 40 xmr or less)
**\<serhack>** I would create some stickers based on https://m.imgur.com/QcdyyWn
**\<serhack>** I will publish plugins on codecanyon.com, every funds will be helpful for Monero Project
**\<serhack>** What do you think moneromoo?
**\<moneromooo>** Cool, thanks for the overview
**\<pero>** dEBRUYNE: was it codecanyon.com you blacklisted from the subreddit? ;p
**\<dEBRUYNE>** .net I think, but that probably doesn't matter haha
**\<serhack>** Your welcome, moneromoo
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I can unblacklist it
**\<serhack>** Everyone should know Monero Community
**\<serhack>** Fantastic community!
**\<gingeropolous>** opinions? If I could even figure out how to code into monero a "remote node" support flag, would it be merged? it would be a daemon load flag that would do the appropriate rpc stuff and also modify some p2p metadata to essentially broadcast its openness
**\<serhack>** Cheers!
**\<serhack>** Please pm me for more information on slack or mail me support@monerointegrations.com
**\<Jaquee>** so, "valgrind /path/to/monerod" works for everyone else except me?
**\<moneromooo>** Worked for me last time I tried. Try running with strace too, see what syscall barfs.
**\* iDunk** can't run valgrind because of TBM in his CPU.
**\<moneromooo>** Too Big Munchkins ?
**\<iDunk>** Trailing Bit Manipulation, IIRC :)
**\<iDunk>** One of AMD's FMA additions, I think.
**\<pero>** so...follow up q...will there be a period of time during which gui master will be broken because of zmq
**\<endogenic>** iDunk: is that similar to a FML addition?
**\<pero>** tewinget Jaquee ^
**\<tewinget>** pero: there shouldn't be.
**\<moneromooo>** tewinget says the daemon runs both 0MQ and JSON/HTTP server, so shouldn't be.
**\<pero>** thx
**\<tewinget>** won't merge the zmq rpc wallet stuff until it's tested working, and at that point the gui wallet will be unaffected
**\<Jaquee>** speaking of testing. is someone working on fixing the failed tests on buildbot builds?
**\<Jaquee>** pigeons1[m]: ^
**\<Jaquee>** and if you're around pigeons1[m]. How's the tagging bot coming along?
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Bot is working in meta repo. I'll talk with fluffy and we'll add it to gui repo.
**\<moneromooo>** What failing tests ? The DNS ones ?
**\<moneromooo>** pigeons1[m]: does it do closes yet ? :)
**\<pigeons1[m]>** I was tracking down lots of my own bugs so switched to an opensource bot i linked to in the meta issue. Seems to work well
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Yes +resolved on a line by itself by someone authorized closes the issue
**\<moneromooo>** Great, thanks :)
**\<pigeons1[m]>** And moo yes i think he means the dns ones
**\<moneromooo>** I've looked at the DNS stuff today, but I'm still flummoxed.
**\<moneromooo>** Redoing manually what libunbound is supposed to do seems... not right :/
**\<moneromooo>** Not to mention a huge amount of work.
**\<moneromooo>** And if libunbound's not doing it right, surely it'd be best to fix it, not do it manually.
**\<moneromooo>** I feel like I'm missing something here :/
**\<moneromooo>** We don't have a coder who knows about DNS already, do we ? :)
**\<tewinget>** I don't know your exact headache, but I remember when I first implemented that shit using libunbound. Just about the only lib I could find that would serve our purposes, but...not without pain.
**\<moneromooo>** Mine is to first find the algorithm to verify a chain. Just that seems to be a lot of cases.
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Dnssec validation locally instead of trusting the server response is part of the pain i think tewinget
**\<moneromooo>** But libnubound claims to do validation.
**\<tewinget>** pigeons1[m]: yeah...I seem to remember that being one of the pain points.
**\<moneromooo>** (and it fails to do so if I give it a bad key, which seems to confirm)
**\<pigeons1[m]>** Yeah we're missing something...
**\<tewinget>** well I gotta afk for a bit. The last step before merging #2044 is to make sure it builds properly on all the things where it needs to, including deciding how to deal with the zmq dependency itself. I hesitate to make a decision there, as I'm ambivalent.
**\<moneromooo>** Probably a submodule.

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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-07-30
summary: Monero Meetups, Case studies – communities in other cryptocurrencies, Twitter / Facebook background, helping out with testing, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*July 30th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<rehrar>** Alright people, here am I.
**\<rehrar>** My humblest apologies for the delay. As explained, I ran last meeting, but didn't think I would make this one. :)
**\<rehrar>** I don't know everything that sgp had planned, but we can try to ascertain what he had in mind. :D
**\<rehrar>** https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/96
**\<rehrar>** here is the agenda
**\<rehrar>** 0. Introduction
**\<bigreddmachine>** I can stay for only 15-20 minutes but will pop in and out after that if I can.
**\<rehrar>** This is a Monero community meeting. It's going to be chill.
**\<rehrar>** 1. Greetings
**\<rehrar>** Yo
**\<serhack>** Hey
**\<keledoro>** Salut
**\<bigreddmachine>** Hi
**\<sgp>** Hi, time was wrong, sorry everyone
**\<sgp>** @rehrar and everyone else, my apologies!
**\<rehrar>** Freedom!!!
**\<bigreddmachine>** Perfect timing. Next up is your meetup debrief.
**\<serhack>** nice sgp!
**\<rehrar>** Good job sgp, I was going to move to 2. Monero Meetups - what I've learned
**\<rehrar>** and tell them that I haven't learned anything
**\<sgp>** Lol
**\<sgp>** Yes, point 2 is about the Monero Meetups and what I have learned
**\<sgp>** As many people here may know, I have spent the last 5 months speaking about Monero throughout Europe. Each of these events were similar in that they attempted to introduce audience members to Monero, but there are a variety of things I learned throughout the series of experiences. In this section, I will cover a few of these items. If someone else has a different topic they would like to elaborate about in future meetings, please contact the
moderators in /r/MoneroCommunity or post after the meeting is over in monero-community.
**\<rehrar>** ok, now that this is resolved, I will be splitting. I'll check the logs. Bye all. Love you. \<3
**\<sgp>** @rehrar thanks for starting it. If I mess up in the future people, please PM me!
**\<serhack>** bye rehrar
**\<sgp>** I spoke 21 times in 20 different European cities. I could discuss Monero and other cryptocurrencies in all these local communities, get to know their perspectives, and learn more about these communities. These meetups varied from a formal presentation to simply meeting at a local bar or restaurant for several hours. In Vienna, my desire to speak resulted in a new dedicated Monero community forming, and I hope them the best in future meetings.
You can see a map of all the visited cities here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1d2MHyEuqmX2IbWPfoDEfrdONxFs&usp=sharing
**\<serhack>** sgp: did you go to Rome? :0
**\<rbrunner>** Impressive
**\<netg>** yeah, great work, i respect that alot
**\<keledoro>** Wow, great stuff!
**\<sgp>** @serhack yes I did back in June
**\<serhack>** :(
**\<rbrunner>** No interest so far in Switzerland, despite "Crypto Valley" ...
**\<sgp>** @rbrunner I did not make it to Switzerland
**\<sgp>** Anyone can talk there though :)
**\<sgp>** Regarding contacting these groups: I typically went to Meetup and messaged the group organizers out of the blue. I often messaged several groups at the same time. I chose groups that had large followings and were recently active. Typically, I received positive responses from these organizers. It was rare for them to say “this is a Bitcoin-only group” or similar. In general, they want to make sure that they are not inviting a scammer to sp
My job was to convince them that I am not a scammer!
**\<rbrunner>** Not too hard I hope with your track record
**\<sgp>** To help this, I also talked about the work I did with my student group at the University of Minnesota. I feel that helped
**\<sgp>** Regarding the audience: most people I spoke to have heard of Monero before but do not know anything about it. Many people at these meetings were using it as their dive into cryptocurrencies. I feel a little bad for these groups of people, since my Monero presentations are relatively packed with technical information. Nevertheless, people after the meetings have told me that it sparked their interest, even if they could not understand the
technical parts. At these meetings, typically only one or two people are very familiar with Monero. If you think you are not an expert, you probably are a Monero expert to other people if you are active enough to spend time on this thread!
**\<serhack>** sgp nice work!
**\<sgp>** I wish I could have done more for new users, but I felt it was more important for the longtime members to have a more thorough knowledge. Also, people did not want to listen to a 3 hour presentation that covers everything
**\<sgp>** Regarding questions: I am not a developer, despite having GitHub commits. I did my best to disclose this, and there were some times I could not answer some specific questions. The best is to answer the questions you feel comfortable answering, and if you cannot, then refer people to the best resource that you are aware of. It definitely helps to be aware of these resources :p.
**\<sgp>** Regarding networking: I’m a business student after all, so I need to include this part. This is something I wish I did better, and it is a learning experience for me. I should have done several other things to keep better contact with these local groups. I included my contact information in all but the earliest presentations, though I should have made business cards to hand out. This is a missed opportunity. Nevertheless, I am still in cont
with many of these Meetup groups. For instance, someone from Bucharest, Romania who owns a cryptocurrency news website offered for me to speak about Monero. You can expect this interview to be posted sometime in August.
**\<sgp>** This is about all I have prepared for this section, so does anyone have any questions for me?
**\<bigreddmachine>** Business cards are so simple but useful. Have found that true with my podcast.
**\<sgp>** or any additional thoughts they would like to share about this or a similarly related topic
**\<ArticMine>** One question what did not work?
**\<ArticMine>** If anything
**\<serhack>** sgp: very good!
**\<sgp>** @ArcticMine I did not get to speak in Edinburgh despite getting initial contact with the organizer there and planning a trip :/
**\<keledoro>** Did any of the audience members mention that they thought XMR would only be a DNM currency or the like?
**\<sgp>** My first speech in Valencia is not very good. I gave a very wrong answer for the total coin supply, for example. Knowing basic coin fundamentals is important too, and I didn't think to review this info right before speaking and was caught off-guard
**\<sgp>** @keledoro definitely
**\<sgp>** I talked about how the Monero community needs to encourage legitimate use, and having a large userbase will reduce the chance that it will only be used by criminals and DNM users
**\<sgp>** Then I would reference a legitimate use, such as porn subscriptions or campaign contributions
**\<bigreddmachine>** Can I make a suggestion? You should write this up as a blog post somewhere so everyone can see it and learn from it easily.
**\<serhack>** bigreddmachine: +1
**\<keledoro>** Interesting
**\<sgp>** @bigreddmachine I plan to :)
**\<serhack>** like on monerocommunity.com
**\<sgp>** ^this is me feeling out what to put in it haha
**\<mattcode>** is monerocommunity.com a thing or are you just proposing it?
**\<rbrunner>** not up it seems
**\<serhack>** mattcode: I'm proposing
**\<sgp>** Does anyone have any other questions or thoughts for what I should include in a summary before we move on?
**\<mattcode>** I don't mind pitching in to run something like that
**\<bigreddmachine>** They can add more in a side channel.
**\<bigreddmachine>** Monero Community should be a GitHub.io page imo
**\<JollyMort[m]>** fyi, just to let you know i discovered a cool project and let them know about Kovri and asked to accept Monero for donations: https://briarproject.org/news/2017-beta-released-security-audit.html
**\<keledoro>** I'd be interested to see what kind of topics you would cover in a more "beginner-friendly" monero presentation
**\<sgp>** @keledoro that is a good idea. Basically Monero for people who don't even know what Bitcoin is
**\<keledoro>** Exactly, since some of the technical aspects can be really frightening
**\<miziel>** sgp: so more like cryptocurrency 101
**\<sgp>** @jollymort thanks for the outreach!
**\<sgp>** Obviously I talked today about something I spent time doing, so if anyone else would like to reserve future meeting time to talk about something they have done or would like to do for Monero , please let us know :)
**\<sgp>** Moving on to 3. Case studies – communities in other cryptocurrencies
**\<sgp>** Let me be clear: I really enjoy Monero’s community, and I do not want to do anything that will take away from any of its advantages. Seriously. Keep that in mind.
**\<sgp>** That being said, I think we should take a look at the other coin communities to see if there is anything to learn from them. Important things such as more efficient ways of communicating, inspiring volunteer work, or means of referencing documentation. We should look at other coins to see if anything they are doing can be incorporated in some way into Monero’s community.
**\<sgp>** We are looking for volunteers to write reports for other cryptocurrency communities, simply evaluating what you found interesting about these communities, what you disliked, and what you liked. There will be no formal requirement for the format, but you will be asked to talk about it for a few minutes at the next meeting :)
**\<sgp>** If you are interested, please consider working on this sort of project. We do not need to use this opportunity just to show if you think other communities are bad; I want to motive of these case studies to see if there is anything interesting that some of these other coin communities, whether official or unofficial, are doing.
**\<serhack>** what do you mean by writing reports @sgp ?
**\<bigreddmachine>** I'll be honest... I think a lot of people arrived at Monero because of the tech, but also because the community is so much different.
**\<sgp>** For example, if literally everyone else on the outside uses Discord, we can work to make an unofficial Discord community too
**\<bigreddmachine>** Who would these reports be submitted to? Are they public? Could get pretty circle jerky
**\<sgp>** Or perhaps a certain website has good documentation
**\<sgp>** @bigreddmachine I mostly mean a short write-up that people can talk about at a meeting. Just something to keep these ideas organized. They could be short bullet points
**\<sgp>** They can be posted to /r/MoneroCommunity, and I expect them to also be linked at the meetings
**\<sgp>** Maybe your local Bitcoin meetup group does something great. You can just make a short, 1-2 page writeup about it, and then discuss it at a meeting. I think things like this can be very helpful at bringing in outside perspectives
**\<keledoro>** Okay, so you're not only referring to other crypto currencies, such as looking at how e.g. Dash is doing their communications and then doing a write-up but also in a more general sense, right?
**\<sgp>** @keledoro right. For example, if people want to join a mailing list, then maybe the community can make one. Something simple like that
**\<sgp>** They will likely be very general, and that's still very helpful
**\<keledoro>** I'm cool with that, but I am not so sure about writing up a report on the other coins communications and discussing them within r/MoneroCommunity
**\<keledoro>** Feels a bit strange, especially if they'd then chime in
**\<sgp>** @keledoro that's fair. How about we just focus on the positives then? We might even want to ask other communities what is most effective for them
**\<keledoro>** Sounds good!
**\<sgp>** Any other thoughts about this? The point is just to bring in outside perspectives
**\<rbrunner>** Maybe worth a try
**\<rbrunner>** Just steer clear of rabbid fanboys, I guess
**\<rbrunner>** On all sides
**\<sgp>** Ok, moving on to a topic mentioned earlier: 4. Twitter/Facebook background
**\<sgp>** I created this post a few weeks back asking for people to redesign the backgrounds: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6nrab3/lets_redesign_the_monero_facebooktwitter/
**\<sgp>** Please review at the options and leave a comment and/or vote. There is no deadline, and it can be updated at any time. I just want to make sure that people who want to spend a few minutes/hours doing something simple for Monero, this is a good place to get started. Even if all you can do is vote on the work of others :p
**\<sgp>** 5. Things you can test
**\<sgp>** There are new things you can test! Please let us know what bugs you find on GitHub.
**\<sgp>** Android GUI port (unofficial build of experimental software): https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/pull/780
**\<sgp>** Sync speed: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/2149 (win64 nightly build https://build.getmonero.org/downloads/monero-0486d6a2-win64.tar.gz)
**\<sgp>** Please take care testing software, since they are much more likely to contain bugs and malicious code.
**\<rbrunner>** Malicious code?
**\<sgp>** Anyone else need community members to test anything?
**\<serhack>** malicious code?
**\<serhack>** my web integrations :)
**\<moneromooo>** That two liner is... not optimal :D
**\<serhack>** Monero WooCommerce Extension https://github.com/monero-integrations/monerowp
**\<sgp>** @rbrunner @serhack unofficial builds like the .apk are more likely to have inserted code in them, among other issues
**\<sgp>** ^also check out @serhack's extension!
**\<rbrunner>** I see. However not very likely me thinks
**\<serhack>** thanks sgp
**\<sgp>** Imagine if @jaquee inserted bad code in the built .apk. Unlikely, but possible
**\<serhack>** sgp: @jaquee can spy us :0
**\<sgp>** 6. Open ideas time
**\<sgp>** This will be even more informal than normal this time :)
**\<serhack>** guy, I have an idea, but it's a fan idea
**\<sgp>** @serhack sounds perfect for this segment
**\<serhack>** my friend asked to me if I can develop something like http://bitcoinergame.com/
**\<serhack>** a Monero clicker game
**\<sgp>** So like Cookie Clicker for Monero?
**\<serhack>** yeah
**\<keledoro>** Can someone explain? I am not sure i'm getting that
**\<JollyMort[m]>** don't forget to test multisig! https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/5646/how-to-use-monero-2-2-multisignature-wallets
**\<mattcode>** keledoro: its just a little game to waste time. you build a virtual/fake mining center that mines fake monero you use to upgrade your mining center
**\<keledoro>** Okay, got it! Thanks
**\<keledoro>** Can we just throw in ideas or how does it work?
**\<serhack>** JollyMort[m]: oh, important!
**\<sgp>** @serhack it could be a fun project. /r/place got me more excited than expected. I don't know how many people will use it though
**\<JollyMort[m]>** dunno when mooo will code n-1/n but n/n is nice
**\<JollyMort[m]>** works like a charm now
**\<serhack>** the purpose is simplify the life of people that don't know anything about monero
**\<serhack>** with a game!
**\<sgp>** There may be a better casual game than mining
**\<serhack>** yes
**\<keledoro>** I was thinking about a collaborative effort to longlist NGOs that could benefit from anonymous donations and then politely reach out to them to inform them about XMR. Also, setting up a XMR wallet address wouldn't be as hard as with integrating it within payment systems of shops.
**\<serhack>** setting a xmr wallet is so simple :)
**\<sgp>** @keledoro that sounds like a fantastic idea
**\<sgp>** We just need an email that doesn't sound too spammy :)
**\<keledoro>** Yep, maybe even a @getmonero mail address
**\<serhack>** scam@fake.com :)
**\<rbrunner>** Are they allowed to take truly anonymous donations?
**\<ArticMine>** It depends on the NGO
**\<moneromooo>** ...
**\<pero>** -\_-
**\<moneromooo>** My opinion of the world just dropped another notch.
**\<keledoro>** ?
**\<afighttilldeath>** We could start with the NGO that accept Bitcoin and go from there
**\<rbrunner>** What's wrong with the world?
**\<moneromooo>** People ?
**\* moneromooo** shuts up
**\<pero>** its a cow thing
**\<rbrunner>** Lol
**\<ArticMine>** Also accepting Monero does not mean they have to be anonymous
**\<moneromooo>** They milk us till the cows come home...
**\<sgp>** @keledoro please feel free to continue this conversation outside of the meeting. It sounds like a really good idea
**\<rbrunner>** Yes, I think that with the NGO is good
**\<keledoro>** Alrighty, will do!
**\<sgp>** Anyone else have a final thought? We have 3 minutes left
**\<datenschleuder>** https://build.getmonero.org/downloads/monero-0486d6a2-win64.tar.gz link is broken
**\<JollyMort[m]>** anonymous != private
**\<JollyMort[m]>** something often forgotten
**\<ArticMine>** ^^ So true
**\<sgp>** @datenschleuder maybe try this one? https://build.getmonero.org/downloads/monero-core-995a5e0-win64.zip
**\<JollyMort[m]>** exhange knows i buy monero == not anon
**\<pigeons>** datenschleuder the link is too old it was rotated
**\<JollyMort[m]>** it doesn't know i buy bibles with it == private
**\<sgp>** That is the latest build. Maybe you need to try a different one
**\<pigeons>** are you looking for a certain PR, or the latest? I can trigger a new build
**\<pigeons>** we only have the space to keep a couple of days
**\<moneromooo>** The 2149 patch.
**\<datenschleuder>** thanks for the new link
**\<sgp>** 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<sgp>** The next meeting will happen in two weeks on 13 August. Same time (18:30 UTC). Look for another meta issue about it on GitHub. Future meetings may be scheduled to the Saturdays before dev meetings, but this is a discussion for another time.
**\<sgp>** I promise I will start the next one on time!!!
**\<sgp>** My apologies
**\<sgp>** Especially to @rehrar
**\<sgp>** 8. Conclusion
**\<sgp>** That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and monero-community.
**\<datenschleuder>** ADVERTISING: Don't forget the next Berlin Monero Meetup 10th august in Gräfestr 77 | 7pm
**\<serhack>** thnak you sgp
**\<sgp>** Feel free to stick around, but the meeting is officiall over
**\<sgp>** Yes go to the Berlin meetup!
**\<keledoro>** Thank you
**\<datenschleuder>** ty sgp!
**\<rbrunner>** Thanks sgp!
**\<netg>** which date is berlin meetup?
**\<netg>** monero meetup 2015 in berlin was great
**\<pigeons>** moneromooo: what platforms do you need built for 2149?
**\<sgp>** @netg 10 Aug
**\<datenschleuder>** @sgp when is the next cummunity meetup? 10th or 13 ?
**\<netg>** 2 days after SHA
**\<netg>** sick timing
**\<pigeons>** datenschleuder win64 GUI build we be linked from https://build.getmonero.org/builders/monero-core-win64/builds/876 when completed
**\<datenschleuder>** thanks! @pigeons
**\<moneromooo>** pigeons: whatever people would test it on. I guess win64 is likely the best target.
**\<moneromooo>** Linux poeple will know how to build it.
**\<datenschleuder>** @sgp I think the channel topic is wrong. it's 13 August 2017
**\<moneromooo>** Thanks :)

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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Kovri Dev Meeting Held on 2017-08-06
summary: Brief review of what has been completed since last meeting, discussion of meta issues, and code & open tickets discussion
tags: [dev diaries, i2p, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*August 6th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<anonimal>** Alright, meeting time.
**\<anonimal>** 1. Greetings
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<anonimal>** 4. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** 5. Any additional meeting items
**\<anonimal>** 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<serhack>** Greetings
**\<serhack>** Hello
**\<anonimal>** Hi
**\<anonimal>** Hello serhack
**\<ArticMine>** hi
**\<serhack>** hi ArticMine, hi Anonimal
**\<i2p-relay> {-pigeons}** howdy
**\<anonimal>** Hi ArticMine, hi pigeons
**\<anonimal>** 1.a: how's everyone doing?
**\<rehrar>** Well weren't there some things to go over regarding that ffs pr?
**\<rehrar>** Oh. We'll talk bout it later.
**\<rehrar>** In the meeting.
**\<rehrar>** Taking care of wife. We both doing ok.
**\<anonimal>** Good I hope.
**\<rehrar>** And hi.
**\<rehrar>** How're you anonimal?
**\<anonimal>** I wish her a speedy recovery.
**\<anonimal>** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<rehrar>** How's your transition going?
**\<anonimal>** lol, funny how you use the word "transition" (inside defcon joke, ping endogenic)
**\<anonimal>** I'm doing fine, thank you.
**\<rehrar>** Not much to report this past while cuz of the surgery. I'll be making up the time this week.
**\<anonimal>** re: 2., I spent most of the past two weeks AFK; busy with fedcon25 and the #monerola meetup (prep/travel/etc.)
**\<anonimal>** So busy with kovri promotion/discussion. As for repo work, I've been able to do documentation and site-related work.
**\<rehrar>** We missed thee.
**\<anonimal>** I'm also way past my milestone hours so I'll need to submit a milestone report to the FFS.
**\<serhack>** Anonimal: I have a lot of question about Kovri, I will connect to irc
**\<anonimal>** What else has been completed since the previous meeting?
**\<anonimal>** Yay, willkommen.
**\<anonimal>** rehrar have you been able to work on any kovri things?
**\<endogenic>** lol wait… transition?
**\<rehrar>** See my above comment.
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: oops, I just read your line (didn't see it)
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: Oh, I think it was more a pwrcycle inside joke. Nm. It was re: "Janet".
**\<anonimal>** But no, I'm not in transition, lol
**\<anonimal>** 3. Contributor FFS check-in / status
**\<endogenic>** ohhh
**\<rehrar>** I meant from anonymous to not.
**\<endogenic>** that makes sense
**\<endogenic>** lolo
**\<moneromooo>** Ah, I first thought the same, then talk of surgery, so I wasn't sure.
**\<endogenic>** yeah anonimal
**\<endogenic>** can imagine how concerned everyone was
**\<rehrar>** Nah. Surgery is my wife. She had some surgery on her eyes this week.
**\<endogenic>** dang
**\<endogenic>** everything ok?
**\<rehrar>** Ye. Her eyes strained at the computer where she works, so we got her Lasik.
**\<endogenic>** ohh
**\<anonimal>** re: 3., like I mentioned, I'll submit a milestone report. I use Kimai to keep detailed logs, down to the second, of all my billable activity. I'd like to submit those instead of writing TL;DR's but on the other hand I don't want all my time publicly tracked. I'll keep TL;DR's for the forum but have timesheets available for core team review if requested.
**\<serhack>** :O
**\<anonimal>** MoroccanMalinois is AFK I don't have an update on his FFS status.
**\<anonimal>** He did say he's submit something soon though.
**\* anonimal** shrugs
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: any kovri FFS plans?
**\<moneromooo>** FWIW, I was keeping track at 5 minute increments, then keeping it to myself. Never been a problem. It only would be with slackers I expect.
**\<rehrar>** Ummm FFS plans?
**\<anonimal>** k
**\<anonimal>** Yes, to have one if needed.
**\<rehrar>** alright, I'm here on IRC sorry for the delay.
**\<anonimal>** 4. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
**\<anonimal>** re: point 4, and also going back to point 2, I did do a lengthy review of MoroccanMalinois' open PR #684.
**\<anonimal>** But other than that, I don't have any comments on point 4. Any questions?
**\<anonimal>** I did notice that the issue-helper on the meta repo appears to be in full swing and is looking good, pigeons.
**\<anonimal>** 5. Any additional meeting items
**\<anonimal>** Anyone interested in discussing quantum entanglement as a solution to nullifying the Alice/Bob relationship in order to eliminate the possibility of Eve?
**\<ArticMine>** Any reference on this?
**\<anonimal>** Not that I know of. It was something I started talking about while at fedcon25.
**\<anonimal>** But I need much more information.
**\<moneromooo>** wat
**\<moneromooo>** Wouldn't that need custom hardware that's nowhere near everyday buyers ?
**\* anonimal** is not a quantum specialist
**\<ajsantos>** so would that mean Eve is both Alice and Bob at the same time
**\<anonimal>** Probably, and probably a custom science too.
**\<anonimal>** What I mean is, AFAICT it's the only way to eliminate Eve and until then, anonymity will always have the potential to be broken.
**\<anonimal>** ajsantos: I don't know
**\* anonimal** will need to brush up on entanglement
**\<anonimal>** But if two points are guaranteed to only exist as a single unified point, I would imagine that Eve could not be Alice or Bob.
**\* anonimal** shrugs, #monero-future-futures
**\<ArticMine>** Ok Alice + Trump Bob = Jong-un Eve = ?
**\<ArticMine>** Alice = Trump
**\<anonimal>** Oh, one more thing, we'll have the 96boards.org podcast on August 17th.
**\<anonimal>** Details in meta/#46
**\<anonimal>** Anything else or shall we wrap the meeting up early?
**\<rehrar>** nothing for me, sorry. I've got a lot going down atm, so I'm in and out intermittently
**\<anonimal>** Yes, Alice would = Bob so their state would be agreed upon at any given moment so long as they become entangled.
**\<anonimal>** Whether passive observation at that point is even possible, I don't know.
**\<moneromooo>** The only use of qe I know about is for Alice to send a message to Bob (ostensibly a key), in a way that Eve cannot eavesdrop on it without Bob being able to detect it.
**\<moneromooo>** (only use for crypto)
**\<anonimal>** I remember seeing a talk about that a while ago. re: anonmymity, I don't know if the concept of "hops" would apply though, and I don't know if "building a network of entangled points" would be an accurate solution to creating an anonymity set.
**\<anonimal>** So many questions!
**\<moneromooo>** AFAICT, the use of this would be to strengthen the crypto, which is already likely well armoured.
**\<moneromooo>** It wouldn't do anything for traffic analysis.
**\<moneromooo>** But then maybe there's more stuff qe can be used for...
**\<moneromooo>** You'd need to pre-share a LOT of bits if you did not want only the key to be sent, though.
**\<moneromooo>** And QE is EASY to collapse.
**\<moneromooo>** Actually, I don't know anything about this, ignore me.
**\<ArticMine>** It is a possible research topic at this point as far as I can see
**\<anonimal>** I'm not a huge fan of PQ discussion because of the number of everyday issues we're currently tackling but for some reason I am intrigued about this area.
**\<anonimal>** Yes, I would like to do more research and write something if needed.
**\<anonimal>** i.e., if it's not already been written.
**\<anonimal>** My FFS could cover it under "Research improving I2P and overlay-network security" and "Opening new proposals".
**\<anonimal>** Though I had imagined something more near-future tangible. We'll see.
**\<anonimal>** Eek, out of time. 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<anonimal>** Same time, two weeks (August 20th)?
**\<anonimal>** Ok, thanks everyone :)

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---
layout: post
title: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-08-06
summary: Discussion of open PRs and issues, minimum / default ring size, mobile wallets, and miscellaneous
tags: [dev diaries, core, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*August 6th, 2017*
# Overview
An overview can be found on [MoneroBase](https://monerobase.com/wiki/DevMeeting_2017-08-06).
# Logs
**\<rehrar>** The usual: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/99
**\<rehrar>** Btw, pony has asked me to make the meeting issues from now on cuz he forget. :)
**\<hyc>** ok cool
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** 1st Issue should be min ring size
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** Time to decide before code freeze
**\<gingeropolous>** From my viewpoint, the issue stands at this: there's consensus to move it to ringsize 5, and there's some support to make it more than that. But I don't think there's any scientific reason for any particular number greater than 5
**\<hyc>** right.
**\<johnalan>** yes 5 is optimal
**\<hyc>** I expressed a preference for 8 because I like powers of 2.
**\<johnalan>** lol
**\<gingeropolous>** so the question is whether we should go greater than 5 just based on a gut feeling that more is better
**\<gingeropolous>** or wait until we have some valid reason with some maths backing it
**\<ArticMine>** The case for more than 5 is two mix sets of 5 recent and random
**\<hyc>** I think the question is what does it do to min tx size
**\<hyc>** and min tx fee
**\<ArticMine>** Yes that is very important
**\<endogenic>** so, more research?
**\<rehrar>** \^
**\<dEBRUYNE>** hyc: increasing mixin from 2 to 10 increases the tx size with ~ 1 kB
**\<dEBRUYNE>** assuming 2 in 2 out transactions
**\<hyc>** yeah, 5 for now. more research for additional changes.
**\<gingeropolous>** should we bump the wallet default?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Perhaps leave it at 4 for uniformity?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** 5\*
**\<endogenic>** fwiw we use 9 in new mymonero apps currently (ringsize of 10)
**\<endogenic>** but we also turned off our tx fees due to ringct tx size et al
**\<endogenic>** temporarily…
**\<hyc>** endogenic: have you also changed output selection algo?
**\<endogenic>** in what way?
**\<ArticMine>** We have to raise min blocksize if we go over 15k tx size
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** Ring size 10 for uniformity
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** All apps and wallets just like mymonero
**\<endogenic>** personally i would love to hear Surae's input on this as well regarding whether we should do this now before making confirmations
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** Tx size not that much larger
**\<endogenic>** heck it would be nice to hear from Sarang as well :P
**\<rehrar>** Well friends, in the interest of the meeting, can we go to item 2? :) Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting.
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** Range proof reductions coming
**\<rehrar>** Oops. After this discussion is done.
**\<endogenic>** hyc feel free to ping me later
**\<vtnerd>** hyc endogenic : mymonero does not use the wallet selection algo currently
**\<vtnerd>** its just random selection over the set of possible outputs
**\<endogenic>** yes i can confirm that
**\<ArticMine>** JollyMort[m] did the simulations but as I recall we are ok if the 2/2 tx size is below 15K
**\<ArticMine>** for min blocksize
**\<ArticMine>** So ring 10 may work
**\<moneromooo>** mixin 14 would still be ok, 19 not. I have no data for 15-18.
**\<gingeropolous>** so r we increasing it or waiting for more research?
**\<ArticMine>** I am ok up to 10
**\<moneromooo>** I'm keeping it to 5 unless a number of people like smooth, ArticMine, luigi1111, surae, knaccc think it's best to increase now.
**\<ArticMine>** Sounds good to me
**\<hyc>** cool
**\<moneromooo>** Maybe we make a vote with those people :)
**\<gingeropolous>** yeah. i propose we push this to core team for final decision. seems to fit the bill of that scenario in the governance structure thingy
**\<endogenic>** vtnerd: any thoughts?
**\<Jaquee>** sounds good. when is testnet HF?
**\<moneromooo>** Tomorrow. If pony merges in time \^\_\^
**\<Jaquee>** :D
**\<vtnerd>** on mandatory ring size ? not really
**\<endogenic>** kk
**\<knaccc>** moneromooo I'm fine with 5 until further research is done
**\<vtnerd>** other than I recall at least 4 being useful, based on the way research paper I saw
**\<Fymiywtfbtcxmr>** Pony drinking wine
**\<luigi1111>** I vote 5 because reasons
**\<moneromooo>** And that guy has 1111 votes ^
**\<hyc>** I vote 8 because we need drama and dissent.
**\<moneromooo>** And because winning a vote with 100% would feel a bit too dictatorship.
**\<moneromooo>** I vote for someone to summon the pony.
**\<ArticMine>** At the point 5 and continue the research
**\<ArticMine>** this
**\<hyc>** yeah
**\<endogenic>** rehrar?
**\<rehrar>** Ye?
**\<endogenic>** may be time for next item
**\<vtnerd>** also moving mymonero to the standard wallet output selection needs a todo somewhere
**\<rehrar>** K. Well I say we jump to 2 as I said above. :) Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting. I'd love to hear from Jaquee and even you regarding mymonero
**\<endogenic>** issue exists on mymonero-app-js
**\<endogenic>** at least in terms of using the official lib
**\<vtnerd>** the mymonero front is probably a crappy but decent place to mark that
**\<vtnerd>** endogenic : ok good
**\<endogenic>** def important to me
**\<pigeons>** maybe moneromooo repeat the list of PRs you've asked fluffypony to merge?
**\<Jaquee>** i'm currently rebasing the huge GUI lightwallets/mobile PR to exclude the lightwallets parts
**\<moneromooo>** I don't have a backlog.
**\<Jaquee>** because #2109 (the wallet2 parts of the lightwallet support) wont make it to the release.
**\<Jaquee>** but i still want to have the mobile and remote node parts from that PR in next release.
**\<Jaquee>** I'd say both ios and android version is ready for alpha/beta testing. But it's being blocked by lack of app store accounts.
**\<Jaquee>** At least the ios version.
**\<Jaquee>** For android we could just build apk on buildbot, but unfortunately there's not enough space on the linux box for that. Pigeons is working on that afaik.
**\<moneromooo>** I'm wary of the changes that affect the normal wallet tx making operations. The rest could be merged if needed.
**\<Jaquee>** yeah. i'm totally ok with that.
**\<Jaquee>** but hopefully we don't need to wait another 6 months for next release after hf
**\<rehrar>** We can launch a little campaign for Android testers? Get the Community workgroup to front that, no?
**\<moneromooo>** If it's like last time, we'll have to wait just a few days \^\_\^
**\<Jaquee>** Fluffy said a couple of months back that he was working on app store accounts for us, but i don't know what the status is. Anyone from core team have more info on that?
**\<pigeons>** android versions. you need one for each architecture
**\<endogenic>** Jaquee he was traveling and needed info which was at home in SA
**\<endogenic>** got back a day ago i think
**\<Jaquee>** endogenic: that was for mymonero accounts afaui. are we using the same for monero apps+
**\<Jaquee>** ?
**\<endogenic>** nah
**\<endogenic>** separate, as i suggested
**\<johnalan>** I have an accoutn and can add 100 team members
**\<rehrar>** Endogenic, you wanna give an update on your fun things?
**\<johnalan>** you’re welcome to use it
**\<endogenic>** unless you guys really want to hop on the MEA bandwagon
**\<hyc>** for android, you can get by with just 32bit binaries
**\<johnalan>** but for prod, better to have MEA account
**\<endogenic>** everyone should be using MEAT tokens
**\<endogenic>** lol johnalan MEA was just a joke :P
**\<johnalan>** oh I know
**\<endogenic>** oh hehe
**\<johnalan>** :)
**\<Jaquee>** johnalan: biggest issue is trust. core team need to build and distribute
**\<johnalan>** yes with Apple code signing
**\<hyc>** not sure if we care to support android x86. that userbase is tiny.
**\<johnalan>** you need an account
**\<Jaquee>** otherwise noone will download =)
**\<Jaquee>** hopefully ...
**\<johnalan>** look at how Signal etc do it
**\<johnalan>** they have the code online open src
**\<pigeons>** so mainly armv8?
**\<johnalan>** but you have to trust the binary on the store
**\<johnalan>** not much you can do
**\<endogenic>** johnalan: Apple's acting as the authority there
**\<johnalan>** \@endogenic on the my Monero iOS app, are you close to beta test?
**\<endogenic>** certainly are
**\<luigi1111>** fluffypony fluffypony fluffypony
**\<johnalan>** great!
**\<endogenic>** fluffypony fluffypony fluffypony
**\<luigi1111>** *fingers crossed*
**\<moneromooo>** \`fluffupoony \`fluffupoony \`fluffupoony
**\<endogenic>** lol
**\<ArticMine>** The pony is in the "land of the free temporarily"
**\<endogenic>** snoozetown, south africa
**\<ArticMine>** He is back
**\<hyc>** we we can still release iOS without waiting for apple account https://inojb.net/
**\<ArticMine>** On jailbreak?
**\<johnalan>** yuck
**\<johnalan>** not keen
**\<hyc>** no jailbreak required
**\<ArticMine>** html5?
**\<johnalan>** I think it’s OTA for their store/repo
**\<johnalan>** and then you install thru that
**\<Jaquee>** lol. that page doesn't look serious
**\<Jaquee>** have you tried it hyc?
**\<johnalan>** but after all the work for iOS, it’s paramount to have it on the store natively
**\<hyc>** there are many other alternatives http://www.iphonetopics.com/how-to-install-cydia-without-jailbreak-iphone-ipad/
**\<hyc>** and no, I haven't tried it, I own no Apple crap.
**\<johnalan>** but we’d still need to distrubute a binary through Cydia
**\<johnalan>** it wouldn’t be on the ‘App Store’
**\<johnalan>** so that’s where it would be suboptimal
**\<endogenic>** anything else completed since last mtg?
**\<johnalan>** people need to be able to take a new iphone, open the store and type ‘Monero’
**\<hyc>** that can come later. if we want people to beta test now, this is the fast route.
**\<johnalan>** fair enough I guess
**\<johnalan>** we can just use test flight
**\<endogenic>** hockeyapp is good too
**\<endogenic>** but then it's a certs question again
**\<johnalan>** you can invite 1K testers
**\<johnalan>** 10K
**\<johnalan>** https://developer.apple.com/testflight/
**\<Jaquee>** yeah. hockey/testflight would be nice
**\<endogenic>** 1 million testers *puts pinky to mouth*
**\<johnalan>** lol
**\<johnalan>** anyway we need to stay tight to the iOS ecosphere on this
**\<johnalan>** native native native
**\<moneromooo>** You have a limit to the number of testers when you code an apple program ?
**\<johnalan>** Yes, but it’s very elegant
**\<endogenic>** moneromooo: not exactly
**\<johnalan>** and when your app is on the store
**\<serhack>** Hello
**\<endogenic>** anyone can install the app on their device
**\<serhack>** Is meeting finished?
**\<Jaquee>** no
**\<hyc>** stil; requires a corporate registration first
**\<serhack>** Nice
**\<johnalan>** you can move through betas simultaneosly
**\<endogenic>** serhack: nah we need to go over code/ticktets/Q&A
**\<johnalan>** @hyc yup thats true
**\<endogenic>** and confirm next mtg
**\<serhack>** Okay
**\<endogenic>** moneromooo: https://developer.apple.com/testflight/
**\<endogenic>** it used to be 100 lol
**\<endogenic>** and they didn't used to have testflight
**\<moneromooo>** Sorry, I was not really interested, just dumbfounded.
**\<johnalan>** its very cool
**\* moneromooo** shuts up
**\<johnalan>** @endogenic would you use testflight or hock for the mymonero ios app?
**\<endogenic>** either. honestly want to just launch the damn thing
**\<Jaquee>** ^^
**\<Jaquee>** so, fluffy is back, and hopefully we can have app store accounts soon\^rm?
**\<hyc>** PRs (17:53:15) moneromooo: 2132 2141 2147 2148 2151 2153 2182 2188 2189 2191 2195 2196 2197 2198 2200 2201 2203 2206 2210 2211 2214 2215 2216 2219 2220 2222 2223 2226 2230 2231 2232 2234 2236 2239 2242 2243 2244
**\<Jaquee>** to merge?
**\<endogenic>** soon™
**\<moneromooo>** Those were the easy merges.
**\<herch>** for what it's worth, I have doubt if apple will ever approve the app. I wish I am wrong here.
**\<endogenic>** herch: i'm not worried about that
**\<serhack>** Hyc: a lot
**\<endogenic>** pretty sure they would rather have official apps than scam apps
**\<endogenic>** after all their priority is user experience
**\<endogenic>** plus we heard through Jaxx that they contacted an apple rep who said it would be ok
**\<serhack>** +1 endogenic, scam users will try to scam us with their fucking apps
**\<endogenic>** but then again do we listen to them? :P
**\<Jaquee>** these are also "easy" merges #2254 #2247 #2233 #2138
**\<rehrar>** Post #25 this week: Hey so I downloaded freewallet and put all my XMR on there. It's gone. Help?
**\<Jaquee>** endogenic: lol. i wouldn't trust jaxx on that information
**\<endogenic>** Jaquee: well /you/ know that… :)
**\<Jaquee>** :D
**\<Jaquee>** anyway. let's move on
**\<hyc>** I missed a question back there - on Android we could release ARMv7 (32bit) wallet. it would work fine on ARMv8 (64bit).
**\<pigeons>** sounds good
**\<hyc>** majority of ARMv8 devices on the market today are still running 32bit OS.
**\<serhack>** Amazing
**\<serhack>** Is there any apk that I can test? I have an android smartphone
**\<hyc>** I think you have to compile for yourself for now
**\<endogenic>** i actually sent a self signed apk to nm90 a long time ago. ppl could still test like that i bet
**\<endogenic>** if you trust them… :P
**\<Jaquee>** i also have one
**\<serhack>** :0
**\<Jaquee>** https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/pull/780
**\<serhack>** Thanks jaquee
**\<Jaquee>** 5 minutes left... i'm wondering about that memory leak in monerod. do we have any clue yet?
**\<moneromooo>** I don't think there's really one.
**\<moneromooo>** (modulo small bits and bobs I already fixed)
**\<hyc>** schrodingers leak
**\<Jaquee>** really? my daemon keeps on OOM crashing
**\<Jaquee>** on a 2GB vps
**\<moneromooo>** Well, run it with mleak, and kill it with SIGPROF from time to time, and send me those logs.
**\<moneromooo>** mleak is on hyc's github repo.
**\<Jaquee>** ah. i'll do that
**\<moneromooo>** But for me, memory usage was constant modulo short term noise.
**\<hyc>** https://github.com/hyc/mleak
**\<Jaquee>** thanks
**\<moneromooo>** hyc: the RSS differences are from the OS deciding when to swap in/out the mmapped pages, right ?
**\<moneromooo>** (for lmdb, I mean)
**\<hyc>** yeah
**\<hyc>** the SHARED number should be relatively constant, growing when the map is resized
**\<hyc>** RSS should fluctuate with other memory pressure
**\<hyc>** s/SHARED/SHM/
**\<moneromooo>** Jaquee: sorry, missing a step: a couple seconds after SIGPROF, do: mdump ml.{data,info} > "monerod.log-`date`"
**\<moneromooo>** Jaquee: sorry, missing a step: a couple seconds after SIGPROF, do: mdump /path/to/monerod ml.{data,info} > "monerod.log-`date`"
**\<serhack>** The app is nice but I noticied a lot of graphical glitch
**\<serhack>** UX must be a prority
**\<hyc>** probably OpenGL crap
**\<rehrar>** Jaquee, did you see that UX guys' thing?
**\<Jaquee>** no?
**\<rehrar>** Sec
**\<serhack>** @krokbaltsar is a UX designer
**\<rehrar>** Monero UX - Persona and Mobile Wallet Concept https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6qkw8e/monero_ux_persona_and_mobile_wallet_concept/
**\<rehrar>** This one.
**\<serhack>** https://www.gustafgarnow.com/monerowallet/
**\<serhack>** ^^ best design
**\<serhack>** Oh, maybe same person @rehrar ;)
**\<rehrar>** Anyways, it's past time.
**\<rehrar>** Confirm next meeting time?
**\<rehrar>** Hopefully FP will come to that one.
**\<hyc>** 2 weeks
**\<hyc>** (TM)
**\<rehrar>** Boom. Done.
**\<serhack>** Okay!

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---
layout: post
title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-08-13
summary: Monero Meetups, Serhack's web integrations, PoW discussion, eSport sponsoring, and miscellaneous
tags: [community, crypto]
author: dEBRUYNE / fluffypony
---
*August 13th, 2017*
# Logs
**\<sgp>** Meeting is starting
**\<sgp>** 0. Introduction
**\<sgp>** We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting
**\<cryptochangement>** hello all
**\<sgp>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/105
**\<sgp>** Monero Community meetings intend to be a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We plan to use this meeting and future meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
**\<sgp>** 1. Greetings
**\<serhack>** hello
**\<rehrar>** Yo yo
**\<moneromax>** howdy doody
**\<Jgiejheufhd>** Hello
**\<sgp>** Looks like we have a small crowd today
**\<sgp>** 2. Justin’s report and community resources
**\<sgp>** I’m consuming valuable meeting time again this week! I want to mention that I have posted my third and final FFS proposal for the summer. Along with the proposal are paragraphs of learning opportunities I had while abroad, and several presentations for you to choose from when you all speak to your local communities :p
**\<sgp>** You can view the FFS proposal here: https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/88081/justin-s-local-meetup-talks-proposal-3
**\<rupee>** hello
**\<4matter>** hello
**\<sgp>** You can view the presentations here: https://github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/monero-presentations
**\<serhack>** nice sgp!
**\<sgp>** Unless there are any other comments, we can move on to #3
**\<serhack>** no comments? :0
**\<cryptochangement>** looks all good thats a lot of places!
**\<sgp>** Yeah! 21 talks in 20 cities
**\<rehrar>** Comment = good
**\<sgp>** 3. Serhack’s web-integration updates
**\<sgp>** Serhack, being the amazing community member that he is, has some updates regarding his web-integration plugins. He asked to reserve some time during this meeting to discuss these, and I yield the floor to him to speak a bit about these.
**\<serhack>** okay, let's start
**\<serhack>** Hello everyone
**\<serhack>** First of all, thanks for supporting me. This community is so strong and that helped me a lot during development. I have a lot of excited news.
**\<serhack>** About development
**\<serhack>** - Implemented a verifying payment script - Implemented the 70% of Woocommerce extension (missing: translations, some improvements on User Interface and User Experience) - Implemented the 40% of Prestashop plugin (missing: translations, User interface, solid backend) Until september I will complete the 90% two plugins (probably missing: translations by community)
**\<serhack>** Business part: - I've tried to contact Automattic, company of Woocommerce, and I've asked them if they were able to put our integrations under "Trusted extension" list. They answered me after two days: "Hello [..], currently our market is closed [..]". No way, I think they have special contracts with company like paypal and strype :( - I'm trying to submit the Woocommerce Payment Gateway to Wordpress.org list , I have to improve my librar
because I discovered that cURL is very very slow with wordpress. - I will try to sell the integrations on markets like Codecanyon by Envato. Please pay attention: I won't sell "plugins", but I will sell "Business support" in order to support other sub-projects by community (like Monero mobile wallet) - There is an option that will increase payments by Monero: every user that will pay by XMR will receive a discount on e-shop of merchant. Merchant ca
select if he/she wants to incentivate monero as payment.
**\<serhack>** this is the huge text that I wrote yesterday
**\<serhack>** what do you think? I can show you some screenshots
**\<sgp>** Sounds like the merchant resources are coming along nicely
**\<rehrar>** Share via imgur
**\<serhack>** http://imgur.com/a/BonJi
**\<serhack>** http://imgur.com/a/KjNUj
**\<4matter>** and post on reddit too
**\<serhack>** 4matter: of course, I will
**\<sgp>** Yeah, people on Reddit will love the progress. Especially with screenshots
**\<4matter>** cool
**\<serhack>** I'm "opening" a demo e-shop
**\<cryptochangement>** i think that it is important to note that although the wordpress plugin is not finished, you can download a "release" from https://github.com/monero-integrations/monerowp/releases and it is completely usable for anyone that wants to use it early
**\<serhack>** cryptochangement: thanks!
**\<serhack>** infact, woocommerce plugin is stable but with errors
**\<sgp>** @serhack anything else you want to discuss?
**\<serhack>** http://imgur.com/a/ZoNDF
**\<serhack>** nothing, thanks for this space!
**\<cryptochangement>** hold on
**\<cryptochangement>** i had one idea
**\<serhack>** about my web integration?
**\<cryptochangement>** serhack i would like your opinion on this (and other community members too) since the wordpress plugin is pretty stable and (in my opinion) works well, i think it would be good to include it on getmonero.org on the "merchants" page
**\<serhack>** cryptochangement: it's a nice idea!
**\<serhack>** anyway I'm developing a little page for merchant
**\<serhack>** that will explain why monero should be use for business
**\<cryptochangement>** great!
**\<sgp>** 4. What to name the Q3 release (#2265)
**\<sgp>** The time is almost up to decide the name for the release for the upcoming fork next month! https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/2265
**\<serhack>** nice point sgp
**\<sgp>** Please comment on GitHub with your ideas. It seems like “Helium Hydra” has reached rough consensus, so make the to say whether you agree or disagree before it’s too late!
**\<serhack>** I think it's important
**\<sgp>** \*so make sure to say
**\<cryptochangement>** I vote for Helium Hydra, and i think that 90% of github agrees haha
**\<4matter>** nice name
**\<sgp>** Agreed :)
**\<sgp>** Anyway, if you have a better one, head to GitHub and let people know
**\<sgp>** 5. Community highlights
**\<sgp>** In this new segment, I would like to thank the efforts by Monero community members that have gone above and beyond. While this can include development, I want to make sure to cover some of the other things happening in the community that may have gone under the radar.
**\<sgp>** Over the past month, I have noticed a significant increase in the number of posts showing Monero in a positive light in /r/CryptoCurrency. Examples include the following: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/6oir0o , https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/6rcr1d , https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/6svt4u , https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/6rnlag
**\<sgp>** I would like to especially thank /u/xmronadaily, /u/afighttilldeath, /u/denk0815, and /u/lethos3 for stirring up the conversation there. Of course, countless other Monero community members hang out in /r/CryptoCurrency and have contributed in all of the linked comment threads, but these users specifically have gone above and beyond to build the Monero community.
**\<sgp>** Of course, dEBRUYNE overachieved by adding labels to everything on GitHub.
**\<sgp>** Thanks to /u/Riiume for starting the first weekly Monero “Tracking” Challenge! To those who are up for a (hopefully impossible) challenge, make sure to check it out! There is a sizable monetary reward associated with it: http://www.monerotrackingchallenge.com/
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I haven't gone through all of them yet :)
**\<sgp>** There are only 1 or 2 days left!
**\<sgp>** Ok, @dEBRUYNE, quite a few things
**\<dEBRUYNE>** For monero-core we have the following labels btw: bug, feature, enhancement, high prio, easy, help wanted, resolved, duplicate, wontfix
**\<JollyMort[m]>** tracking challenge is good marketing considering it's impossible to determine the address :D
**\<dEBRUYNE>** If anyone has recommendations on which one to add to a particular issue, please PM me
**\<sgp>** @jollymort fingers crossed
**\<sgp>** /u/digitaltreegames has posted several accurate articles about Monero on their website and has maintained strong and positive communication with the Monero community. See the two articles about Monero here: http://thecryptotrading.com/quick-beginners-guide-to-monero-xmr/ , http://thecryptotrading.com/monero-news-august-2017/
**\<sgp>** /u/zhizhongzhiwai has been working hard without donations to build the Monero Chinese community from scratch. He has updated the community through every part of the process. Monero needs local experts in different parts of the world to step up and build these communities.
**\<moneromooo>** I'm not sure whether that's known or not, but... There's a neverending stream of snake oil in cryptography. Companies peddling shit "patented", "military grade" cryptosystems that are plain crap. A common gimmick is to issue a competition to break those, and, invariably, nobody bothers spending the time to do so.
**\<4matter>** it would be great if he hosted a monero meetup in china too
**\<4matter>** i PM'd him on reddit...but no response...so if anyone talks to him, mention it
**\<sgp>** @4matter I will see if he is able to translate my or Riccardo's presentations and record them
**\<4matter>** makes sense!
**\<sgp>** Obviously there are thousands of other community participants not included here. Does anyone else want to speak highly of another contributor?
**\<4matter>** you!
**\<sgp>** nah other people :p
**\<rehrar>** *chants* S-G-P. S-G-P
**\<cryptochangement>** ^ +1
**\<4matter>** rehrar for helping with the esports sponsorship...we'll discuss that later
**\<4matter>** :P
**\<sgp>** @4matter yes :)
**\<sgp>** Thanks everyone
**\<sgp>** 6. Proof of Work discussion
**\<sgp>** I do not want to take much public comment here, but there is a very important issue on GitHub. The discussion will determine what to do with Monero’s Proof of Work. Monero uses the CryptoNight PoW algorithm, and some people have suggested switching to a different algorithm as soon as possible while potential conflicts are smaller. Please join this discussion if you are interested: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/12
**\<serhack>** S-G-P
**\<ArticMine>** I second that
**\<sgp>** This comment in particular gives the high-level options available https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/12#issuecomment-320586397
**\<sgp>** Super serious stuff here, so please review the info, even if you only understand some parts of it
**\<sgp>** 7. Overwatch sponsorship discussion
**\<sgp>** @4matter has contacted someone who is interested in possibly being sponsored by Monero. @4matter, the floor is yours to discuss this development :)
**\<sgp>** \*by the Monero community
**\<4matter>** great...thanks...rehrar is here too
**\<sgp>** Not from the core team :)
**\<rehrar>** Oh, I think I'm supposed to soak here. :P
**\<rehrar>** Speak\*
**\<4matter>** yes
**\<rehrar>** Unless 4matter wants to ofc
**\<4matter>** :P
**\<rehrar>** Ok coo
**\<4matter>** go ahead man!
**\<rehrar>** So yeah, 4matter has taken an amazing initiative and contacted a local Overwatch team (which is a competetive video game for those who don't know)
**\<serhack>** oh nice 4matter
**\<rehrar>** The manager is interested in hearing what we would have to offer them.
**\<rehrar>** The way sponsorships typically work is a sponsor gives money or equipment to help pay for expenses for the team
**\<sn0wmonster>** as a bitcoiner for 9 years, dogecoiner for 4, a monero user for 1 week, i have some advice
**\<rehrar>** And in return, they put symbols when the players stream, or maybe a the sponsor on the jerseys and stuff.
**\<rehrar>** These things can be discussed.
**\<rehrar>** Sure sn0wmonster
**\<sn0wmonster>** stop giving money away for cheap promotions when the reason monero is going to outperform Bitcoin is because it is more professional
**\<sn0wmonster>** focus on the strongpoints and market those in the *proper* channels
**\<rehrar>** This is indeed a valid opinion.
**\<sn0wmonster>** i highly recommend not clowning around with casuals in casual environments. whatever they need to know, they already know because of bitcoin,
**\<rehrar>** One if the things that can be discussed here. :)
**\<sgp>** @sn0wmonster what channels do you feel are proper?
**\<sn0wmonster>** and any hateful ignorant opinions they have, they will think worse of Monero (because terrorism!)
**\<sn0wmonster>** sgp, frankly, it's already being used in the proper communities
**\<sn0wmonster>** it just needs to grow organically
**\<4matter>** thoughtful input, sn0wmonster
**\<serhack>** I can confirm that there is a sort of terrorism about Monero
**\<4matter>** ok back on topic...
**\<rehrar>** Does anybody have any other initial thoughts about the initiative?
**\<rehrar>** Before I continue?
**\<joro>** who is our target audience with this sponsorship?
**\<moneromax>** and how do we propose to measure ROI?
**\<4matter>** 30 million people play Overwatch
**\<4matter>** approx.
**\<cryptochangement>** I personally think that the pro-gaming community has a lot of people that would be interested in BTC/Monero so if we are going to do a sponsorship, this would actually be a pretty good audience
**\<sn0wmonster>** for 9 years i've wqatched bitcoiners embarrass themselves with sponsorships, advertisements, and in the end, NEWS was the only real seller.
**\<sn0wmonster>** If you want to promote Monero, start thinking like stock traders
**\<sn0wmonster>** contact the news outlets and give them interviews
**\<sn0wmonster>** tell them stories, give them exclusives
**\<ffnopeg>** how big/small is Overwatch compared to Dota or LoL? I guess those other cannot be sponsored by monero
**\<cryptochangement>** 4matter yeah i dont personally play overwatch but i know a shit load of people that do, its MASSIVELY popular
**\<4matter>** sn0wmonsters...several insitutional investors own esports/overwatch teams
**\<4matter>** thx :P
**\<serhack>** sn0wmonster: interesting
**\<sn0wmonster>** 4matter, you think an institutional investor is going to take their investment advice from a sports car?
**\<sgp>** @sn0monster, thank you for your opinion. I am not dismissing it, but let's talk about the possible logistics here now and make a decision later
**\<sn0wmonster>** they're going to read the journals
**\<sn0wmonster>** okay, no worries
**\<pigeons>** when i see some coin has sponsered something, i think why are they trying to pump it, and usually that is the only thing they are doing
**\<4matter>** sn0wmonster...the community also done a lot to contact news outlets too...
**\<4matter>** we got that covered!
**\<sn0wmonster>** ive stabbed my eyes out for 9 years, just don't want the one cryptocurrency i actually *respect* to fall into the same trap is all :3
**\<cryptochangement>** ffnopeg overwatch is much bigger than dota
**\<pigeons>** yeah its really nice that monero is concentrated on working and not on promoting
**\<sgp>** Do we have an estimate for how much they would expect? What are their demographics? Is the team well-known and/or competitive?
**\<rehrar>** *shrug* pigeons, if some people are willing to give money to something like this, then what's the harm?
**\<sgp>** the demographics of the spectators, I mean
**\<rehrar>** If they aren't, then that's ok too.
**\<cryptochangement>** I personally hate the idea of "marketing" monero, but i think that the type of person that follows an MLG team would actually be interested in monero for more than just trading/exchanges which IMO is what monero really needs
**\<4matter>** my sense is that overwatch league is about to have it's first season, so the teams don't have any sponsorship structures in place. i think they are pretty open to whatever would be useful for the players/gamers on their team...
**\<DaveyJones>** if you dont get some of those real PRO teams don`t bother with a sponsorship .... monero's "no advertising" brand is pretty strong to waste it on some tiny local team IMO
**\<moneromax>** I think the main danger may be "promotion fatigue", where people get tired of throwing money at stuff with no measurable ROI.
**\<4matter>** how would you measure ROI then moneromax
**\<DaveyJones>** also sn0wmonster is right ... you can be sure 99,9 % of all real PRO players are already covered
**\<rehrar>** Good discussion btw. :) Although it goes back to the tired conversation of whether Monero should market or not.
**\<4matter>** DJ, 30 million eyeballs is not small
**\<moneromooo>** 60
**\<moneromax>** I don't claim to be an ROI-measuring genius, but there are specialists in that.
**\<Link>** So does anyone know what sponsoring a team would actually cost? Ballpark?
**\<rehrar>** Can I take the floor again?
**\<rehrar>** Thanks
**\<4matter>** sorry
**\<sn0wmonster>** Monero is not a product, you don't market it like one
**\<DaveyJones>** sure but sponsoring the nascar car that only drives in the back ... its not worth it besides the jerking off ... see dogecoin
**\<4matter>** ok give rehrar the floor
**\<rehrar>** Here's the thing. I think the community should decide. It doesn't hurt to bring the proposal to the community and see the response. This is only a small subset of the community.
**\<pigeons>** yeah it really gives off a shady vibe
**\<moneromax>** actually it is a product, something that is produced.
**\<rehrar>** In regards to logistics, this would be something I'm not sure the FFS is good to handle, but there are few other options.
**\<sn0wmonster>** moneromax, when's the last time you saw USD being advertised on a car? lol
**\<4matter>** STFU snow
**\<cryptochangement>** moneromax has a point. We really need to know about this team to figure out if it will be worth it. look at 8BTC it seems like a lot of people threw money at it not really knowing that mcuh about it and now we have a lot of work to do to get it to the point were the forum is actually used
**\<4matter>** you've been here a week...sit back and be respectful lol
**\<sgp>** @rehrar I suggest you and/or @4matter should suggest it with many of the burning questions (cost, target demographic, measurement of success/failure, pros/cons) answered so that we have some baseline
**\<moneromax>** well products and promotions are separate considerations.
**\<DaveyJones>** and if we a proceding the eSports angle ... i would rather prefer a tournament ... 50 % prize for the team 50 % prize for some charity of their choice... but i guess thats TOO big for the moment
**\<sgp>** @4matter let's cool down, we all just want what's best
**\<DaveyJones>** ^ this gives attention
**\<rehrar>** Ooooh DaveyJones that's a cool idea.
**\<4matter>** how are you sure sgp?
**\<pigeons>** maybe someone wants to start an esports league that takes or pays monero, thats cool for someone to do, but "the monero community" sponsoring something, yuk
**\<rehrar>** The Monero Community is not a brand that has certain standards. It's a lot of people that all have different opinions.
**\<4matter>** ok so the owner of this Overwatch team we are considering ALSO is invested in http://corp.skillz.com
**\<sgp>** I suppose I'm hopeful. Do you have an idea what you should do before we bring this up again? When is the deadline?
**\<ArticMine>** We need to stay away from any formal sponsorships that are "official"
**\<4matter>** maybe we could look into that?
**\<ArticMine>** Money by is very nature needs to be neutral
**\<cryptochangement>** rehrar the onyl problem i see with the "lets just give it a go" idea is that it seems like a lot of people feel obligated to support FFSs because they cant help on github. its good to see support byut we dont want people blindely throwing their money at this
**\<4matter>** why articmine? lol
**\<Link>** I think promoting Monero to communities that are most likely to benefit Monero would be the smartest approach. e.g. techies, libertarians, privacy advocates, etc.
**\<rehrar>** That's another thing. This probably will not be handled by FFS.
**\<rehrar>** I mean, it could for sure.
**\<Link>** Promoting through e-sports might be useful, but probably not the best return for the money invested
**\<ArticMine>** ... because I may want to use Monero on the competitive network
**\<rehrar>** But this isn't typically what FFS is used for.
**\<4matter>** so the 8btc had a great ROI?
**\<4matter>** LMAO
**\<rehrar>** Another option is to have a trusted community member manage the donated funds and help the team as best as he/she can with them.
**\<ArticMine>** We cannot be seen as giving any formal endorsement of a product or service
**\<rehrar>** Ok, this is getting a bit off.
**\<sgp>** @4matter we will need to figure that out, but it could have used more coordination
**\<4matter>** 8btc was a disaster
**\<sgp>** Let's begin wrapping this up
**\<moneromax>** I think the whole concept of the FFS could use some serious reworking.
**\<Link>** I wouldn't say 8BTC is a disaster
**\<joro>** how about a funding proposal for a real PR agency to arrange interviews with national outlets? radio/TV shows, etc? real coverage
**\<4matter>** and yet shit like funding rehrar gets tossed to the side?
**\<4matter>** pretty fucked up
**\<rehrar>** Ok. Hold up. There needs to be something that needs to be established.
**\<cryptochangement>** moneromax +1
**\<pigeons>** no how about quit with the pr
**\<Link>** The Chinese will come at some point, the 8BTC forum will be there with Chinese lanugage resources
**\<rehrar>** Meh. I give up. I'll make a post about it later.
**\<4matter>** Link, 8btc was/is a disaster
**\<4matter>** sorry
**\<4matter>** what's the ROI on that?
**\<Link>** I mean, the cost was pretty steep
**\<4matter>** Link, what is the ROI?
**\<cryptochangement>** welp rehrar done given up...
**\<rehrar>** :D
**\<sgp>** I am going to move on. It looks like for the Overwatch proposal, we need to have more resources before we discuss it further
**\<Link>** Impossible to evaluate
**\<serhack>** how many xmr did community give for 8btc?
**\<rehrar>** Just with this conversation with you guys for now.
**\<sgp>** Thanks everyone for your opinions
**\<rehrar>** Too many speakers.
**\<cryptochangement>** serhack a shit load
**\<ffnopeg>** at least I know that Overwatch is game, good "meeting"
**\<Link>** Also, it was funded for a full year, so evaluate at the end of the year
**\<sgp>** Let's not talk about 8btc at the moment :)
**\<4matter>** this is really sad, guys
**\<serhack>** okay sgp
**\<DaveyJones>** link i even doubt that it will be taken off by then
**\<rehrar>** 4matter, you and I will discuss privately soon. :)
**\<sgp>** I am going to close all discussion about 8btc, Overwatch, an the FFS until the meeting is over to stay on topic
**\<cryptochangement>** moooving on...
**\<sgp>** 8. Open ideas time (but not 8btc, Overwatch, and FFS)
**\<sgp>** It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
**\<sn0wmonster>** **\<rehrar>** The Monero Community is not a brand that has certain standards. It's a lot of people that all have different opinions.
**\<sgp>** Any other ideas from how to better the community?
**\<moneromax>** I was going to just PM a few folks about this, but...
**\<sn0wmonster>** and yet its using the official #monero registered project namespace for a meeting?
**\<sn0wmonster>** why not ##monero-fanclub :P
**\<JollyMort[m]>** on the FFS subject, it kind of bugs me how on redderp it's so common to see "let's do a FFS for X or for Y"
**\<JollyMort[m]>** as if nothing happens unless someone funds it
**\<JollyMort[m]>** offering money for anything can only bring in some actors to sucker the money away from the communitiy
**\<sgp>** @keledoro followed up with me about his idea to contact some people, and we are working together on this. I will respond to him tomorrow
**\<moneromax>** there was a recent topic by /u/ViolentlyPeaceful regarding a Monero Marketing hub.
**\<serhack>** +1
**\<sn0wmonster>** my opinion is that bitcoin succeeded because the banks understand it. Monero needs exposure, not advertising. there's a difference.
**\<serhack>** We should have a Monero marketing hub
**\<cryptochangement>** JollyMort[m] most people on reddit aren't developers so a lot of them see it as their only option to contribute, even if that isnt necissarily true
**\<pero>** can anyone pastebin the log for me please?
**\<sn0wmonster>** get exchanges to start using it (there are several already), make youtube videos explaining the difference between bitcoin and monero, focusing on the defacto-privacy model
**\<pigeons>** make things that people will use
**\<moneromax>** I've set up a Discourse instance on monero.marketing. I thought I'd start out keeping it by invitation only.
**\<pigeons>** and promote those things
**\<JollyMort[m]>** sure, but if you give the impression you want to throw money...
**\<pigeons>** not monero
**\<sgp>** Imo, we need to be cautious of marketing, but I don't think all marketing is bad. At the end of the day, none of you can stop me from advertising Monero on TV :p
**\<sn0wmonster>** use keywords that attract anarchocapitalists, preppers, anti-gov, libertarians, etc
**\<moneromax>** I think Discourse is much nicer forum software than Reddit or forum.getmonero.org.
**\<cryptochangement>** anybody got a "Don't buy monero" sign for sgp??
**\<sn0wmonster>** pretty simple playbook already well established by bitcoiners ages ago. if anyone wants to have these discussions again, try reading the bitcointalk.org forums from year 3+
**\<pero>** why not socialists and marxists?
**\<pigeons>** yeah big tent
**\<johnalan>** why not capitalists?
**\<serhack>** everyone should use cryptocurrency
**\<moneromax>** Anyway, if anyone is interested I guess PM /u/duzies for now.
**\<sn0wmonster>** marxists don't believe in money, they use Marx brothers VHS for currency
**\<Link>** Idea: Reddit ads on very targeted communities, such as r/libertarian, r/anarchist, r/privacy, etc.
**\<pero>** thats not true
**\<serhack>** if we use words like anti-gov, people will think we are anti-gov too
**\<rupee>** One of the things that makes it difficult to trade goods/services for XMR is the trouble coming up with a fair exchange rate. It would be nice if there were an index similar to tradeblock.com/markets/index/ for monero that takes XMR/BTC price from the 3 main exchanges and multiplies by BTC/USD and volume-weights it
**\<sn0wmonster>** pero, it was a poor joke
**\<sgp>** Important marketing successes early on will boost the community's morale. They need to be planned well and executed well, which is hard in an open-source project
**\<sn0wmonster>** serhack: and if we use words like "esports", people will think monero is a game coin
**\<moneromax>** Marketing is misunderstood. People confuse it with scammy promotion / snake oil.
**\<pero>** can anyone pastebin the log for me please?
**\<serhack>** yes sn0wmonster
**\<pero>** got it thx
**\<sn0wmonster>** anyway, who has contacted exchanges about getting Monero added?
**\<sn0wmonster>** and what exchanges did they contact? is Monero a registered company that does that sort of thing or is it relying on the community to do it?
**\<sn0wmonster>** is this something fluffypony tends to handle?
**\<pigeons>** no
**\<sgp>** @sn0wmonster contacting more local news is something that should be prioritized. We need more resources explaining how to do this effectively
**\<serhack>** yes
**\<sgp>** thanks for the suggestion
**\<JollyMort[m]>** afaik, Kraken added it of their own free will, without ever contacting anyone
**\<joro>** yes
**\<cryptochangement>** sn0wmonster monero is not a company, it is just software with a community. I thought that was clear
**\<moneromooo>** pigeons has a point.
**\<serhack>** cryptocurrency in italy is like a "mysterious world"
**\<JollyMort[m]>** and for the PoW discussion, it's mostly concern trolling and some 3-day accounts in that discussion
**\<moneromax>** As much as I hate all the pontificating I hear elsewhere about "governance", herding Monero cats is super hard.
**\<sgp>** I think university newspapers are the low-hanging fruit that are more open to ideas like this
**\<sn0wmonster>** sgp: agreed. i already write copy for the #Neo900 project and my own #taskhive (decentralized p2p freelancer marketplace application i will be using Monero as the default payment method for), i don't mind helping to write poignant copy for Monero to exchanges and news outlets
**\<sn0wmonster>** serhack, crypto in peru is nonexistent. Paypal is only now making the move from "obvious scam because not physical cash" to "okay maybe i can us eit for only $1 at a time"
**\<cryptochangement>** sgp university newspapers is genious!
**\<sn0wmonster>** there is no point in focusing marketing crypto to second-world, third-world or closed-minded countries.
**\<sgp>** I need help contacting mine though, since I don't know how
**\<DaveyJones>** we rather need a network of informed journalists that truly know monero is about ... and not only say "muh, anon"
**\<sn0wmonster>** the wealthy and the industry leaders are the targets
**\<JollyMort[m]>** sn0wmonster you raise good points
**\<sn0wmonster>** after that, everyone copies
**\<JollyMort[m]>** ^^
**\<serhack>** a lot of journalists are scared by cryptocurrency
**\<serhack>** especially the chaos of bitcoin and forks
**\<JollyMort[m]>** focus on targets that have a good chance of liking it
**\<sn0wmonster>** that's history
**\<JollyMort[m]>** then they can become leaders
**\<sgp>** Maybe I can talk to the BEN members about their successes with that
**\<JollyMort[m]>** and so on
**\<sn0wmonster>** Monero is not bitcoin, that is it's greatest strength
**\<JollyMort[m]>** sheeple will be the last
**\<DaveyJones>** sth like "paid" stories but those stories are about the benefits only no selling
**\<sn0wmonster>** when people ask "what about \_\_\_\_?", the answer is "Monero is not bitcoin".
**\<JollyMort[m]>** you don't market to sheeple, you market to shepards :)
**\<sn0wmonster>** you market to wolves actually, the shephards just learn it because they have to be ahead of the wolves
**\<JollyMort[m]>** cryptonaire- did some impact with paid PR from his pocket
**\<cryptochangement>** sn0wmonster honestly it seems like most people view Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as all the same
**\<rehrar>** There is a fundamental misunderstanding here regarding workgroups, the monero community, and even #monero-community
**\<sn0wmonster>** cryptochangement, and when they do that to others things, we call them racist, bias, etc. there's no reason to cater to the ignorant.
**\<sn0wmonster>** lead by example and be proud, not shaky and greedy like a crack addict
**\<sgp>** 5 more minutes. Make your final thoughts heard!
**\<moneromax>** hey, another slogan idea: "free money!" (as in freedom)
**\<sn0wmonster>** there is zero excuse for a "sponsorship of events" other than a money grab. if you want the world using Monero, tell the world, don't 'sell it'
**\<sn0wmonster>** it is the only lightweight private coin
**\<serhack>** this is a great meeting :)
**\<sn0wmonster>** everything else is a ton of overhead (zcash?????), an unproven and unconventional fork, and no where near as slick as Monero
**\<sn0wmonster>** Monero attracted me because of open transactions
**\<sgp>** I used the slogan "Safe money for everyone" in the final copy of my presentation (which you should definitely check out!)
**\<sn0wmonster>** when you have people who understand accounting making accounting currency software, that's a blessing
**\<ProkhorZ>** @sgp Gideon Gallasch from the Blockchainhotel in Essen asked me if Monero wanted to sponsor his conference.
**\<sn0wmonster>** it's an additional blessing that they appreciate class
**\<sn0wmonster>** don't ruin it people
**\<cryptochangement>** sn0wmonster the only problem with that is, sadly not all that many people know about cryptocurrencies. If you just think about yourself as better than everyone else who is "ignorant" because they are uninformed you will have a real problem. I can say with confidence that i only know maybe 4 people at most who have heard about "that bitcoin thing", which is why people need to be e
**\<sgp>** @ProkhorZ wow. Really?
**\<cryptochangement>** ducated as the word spreads
**\<ProkhorZ>** I dont know whether that would be worth it
**\<moneromax>** funny how everyone is asking Monero for money, rather than offering to donate.
**\<JollyMort[m]>** cryptochangement thing is those "ignorant" people follow some other more influential people
**\<sn0wmonster>** cryptochangement, so educate them. what is Monero's logo on a car going to do?
**\<sgp>** The conference costs several hundred for each seat. They need more money?
**\<JollyMort[m]>** you don't want to waste energy
**\<JollyMort[m]>** so focus on trend-setters
**\<sn0wmonster>** yes
**\<JollyMort[m]>** leaders
**\<sn0wmonster>** start at the source
**\<JollyMort[m]>** influencers
**\<DaveyJones>** ProkhorZ no clue what kind of event that is ... im having the fear its close to a "salesman" thing
**\<ProkhorZ>** @sgp Yes, I went to his meetup
**\<sn0wmonster>** get into media, not as a client, but as a producer.
**\<DaveyJones>** i get facebook Ads for that !
**\<sn0wmonster>** news news news
**\<sn0wmonster>** the price of bitcoin is controlled by news. that should be obvious by now.
**\<cryptochangement>** sn0wmonster i was just speaking in general ;)
**\<sgp>** @ProkhorZ PM me on Reddit (/u/SamsungGalaxyPlayer) and we will discuss this. I will try contacting Gideon
**\<rupee>** contolled by new. lol
**\<sgp>** This is not quite what I was expecting
**\<DaveyJones>** and if i get facebook ads about some blockchainhotel that is concerning... in the light off every other facebook ads about cryptos are also scammy or eToro
**\<rehrar>** let's formally end the meeting for now
**\<rupee>** price of bitcoin is controlled by family offices and hedge funds
**\<sgp>** Yes. It is time to end the meeting
**\<sgp>** 9. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<sgp>** There is a change in the meeting schedule! To address many concerns people have voiced, the next meeting will be on 2 September at 17:00 UTC. It will be the Saturday before the dev meetings. Furthermore, I hope the earlier time will help people in the eastern hemisphere.
**\<cryptochangement>** sgp sounds good to me!
**\<sgp>** We will evaluate whether this is a good decision in a few weeks
**\<sgp>** 10. Conclusion
**\<sgp>** That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
**\<sgp>** Good discussions all around