**\<sarang>** I suppose we can discuss recent updates and such
**\<sarang>** I have been focusing on noninteractive refund transactions
**\<sarang>** it's surprisingly tricky to get right
**\<sarang>** The idea of whether or not to hide block heights has big implications on size and complexity
**\<sarang>** and also will affect the use of old outputs
**\<theRealSurae>** Hey everyone, sorry I'm late (and not using my registered nick)
**\<sarang>** A good higher-level question is whether we insist that having refund transactions is enough of a priority
**\<sarang>** Hello fake suraeNoether
**\<theRealSurae>** heh
**\<sarang>** \*enough of a priority to devote big plumbing-level changes
**\<sarang>** these questions have consumed me as the Whale consumed Ahab
**\<sarang>** and, like Ahab, I spend much time in the company of Starbuck(s)
**\<theRealSurae>** gross
**\<sarang>** theRealSurae: what has consumed you lately?
**\<UkoeHB>** it feels like there should be an easier way to hide amounts. Maybe worth mulling for some time
**\<sarang>** UkoeHB: other than commitments?
**\<rehrar[m]>** Hi
**\<UkoeHB>** Yeah. Maybe a shift in perspective. Baseless intuition
**\<silur>** what
**\<sarang>** Well, the current Best Way is homomorphic commitments + range proofs to ensure balance
**\<theRealSurae>** I've been thinking about koe's reduced mlsag and how we might be able to batch-verify ring signatures with bulletproofs. and i've been speaking with a professor at clemson university about the possibility of starting a paid project for a grad student to invent a new elliptic curve with 2^255-19 points on it, or to come up with a similar sort of variant to secp256k1
**\<theRealSurae>** yeah, I think we are going to experience reduced returns in terms of hammering bulletproofs for improving our amount strucutres
**\<sarang>** theRealSurae: BPs to batch verify our current MLSAG scheme?
**\<silur>** oh yea the curve order question you asked
**\<theRealSurae>** so, i think it'd be really really helpful for both bitcoin and monero to have alternate curves
**\<theRealSurae>** ohgod
**\<theRealSurae>** other than that and the multisig dump I made the night before yesterday, this week has been consumed by editing papers for other folks. Koe and my old advisor and another document. lots of reading this week
**\<sarang>** What are your thoughts on refunds?
**\<UkoeHB>** and thank you for that :) incredibly helpful
**\<sarang>** UkoeHB: any big changes to your excellent paper?
**\<UkoeHB>** Well we found out monero doesn't even use borromean sigs
**\<UkoeHB>** genBorromean should be genSAGs
**\<UkoeHB>** Or something
**\<sarang>** SAG?
**\<theRealSurae>** I've been thinking a lot about the refund structure with timelocks, and I'm trying to figure out exactly whether we have a novel "invention" in these refund transactions or whether tit is equivalent to a timelock+multisig situation
**\<UkoeHB>** spontaneous anonymous group sig. Like LSAG but no key images
**\<sarang>** for range?
**\<UkoeHB>** Yeah
**\<UkoeHB>** Check ringCT.cpp genBorromean
**\<sarang>** Yeah I'm familiar with that code
**\<UkoeHB>** It's 33% larger range proofs than a real borromean setup
**\<theRealSurae>** ... i need more details about that, koe, if you don't mind...
**\<sarang>** heh
**\<sarang>** theRealSurae: big thing is non-interactivity
**\<sarang>** I don't need the recipient's cooperation
**\<UkoeHB>** I'll see what I can do
**\<theRealSurae>** thanks koe, i'm not in a rush on that though...
**\<theRealSurae>** I want to remind everyone that I'll be mostly away from the internet from tomorrow until the 19th, with some intermittent access.
**\<moneromooo>** luigi1111: is this (genBorromean doesn't actually generate Borromean sigs) correct ?
**\<UkoeHB>** yup have fun :). Vacation right?
**\<theRealSurae>** i'm not the sort who can really put work down, but i'm trying, briefly. i managed to write up a skeleton of the unforgeability proof for multisig and hand it off to sarang to familiarize himself with the musig approach
**\<binaryFate>** Zcash is also coming up with their own curve so as to speed up the particular things they need to. I find it worrying if the trend is that every project cooks up their curve to suit their particular needs.
**\<theRealSurae>** and, like I said, I'm communicating with some folks at Clemson
**\<sarang>** Yeah I've been revisiting the original musig paper
**\<luigi1111>** Not that I know of
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: why would this be worrying?
**\<luigi1111>** theRealSurae: 2^255-19 isn't the number of points
**\<theRealSurae>** you are right, it's the group order
**\<binaryFate>** against the "don't invent your own crypto", and light years away from typical review process for curves
**\<theRealSurae>** right? i misspoke
**\<vtnerd>** no, 2^255-19 is the prime field
**\<sarang>** I hear it's a kind of cake
**\<sarang>** Or that feeling when your leg falls asleep and you stand up
**\<luigi1111>** Group order is l
**\<luigi1111>** 2^252+blah
**\<sarang>** aaaanyway
**\<theRealSurae>** i confess I tend to think of our group as a scrambled mirror image of Z\_q, despite addition of points not even landing on the subgroup.
**\<sarang>** So theRealSurae is working on unforgeability
**\<sarang>** I am figuring out if noninteractive new-output-style refunds are worth it
**\<sarang>** Other fun times?
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: yeah, I see that
**\<sarang>** binaryFate: do you have any information on the Zcash efforts? I wasn't aware of their work
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: eventually that curve, even if proven to satisfy our desired properties, will have to be implemented, and the dangers or crappy implementation are huge... but I don't think that should discourage research into new curves and new proof methods using isomorphic curves
**\<theRealSurae>** yeah, I wasn't either. I thought it was just Blockstream looking for a variant of secp256k1 so far
**\<UkoeHB>** oh i messed up - they are borromean ugh
**\<theRealSurae>** that's a relief koe!
**\<sarang>** UkoeHB: what led to believe otherwise?
**\<luigi1111>** ^
**\<UkoeHB>** misreading code like a fool
**\<UkoeHB>** thought this hash\_to\_scalar(L[1]) meant an array of hashes for each L[1], instead of a hash of the entire array
**\<sarang>** Good thing hashes aren't important to borromean sigs /s
**\<sarang>** If there aren't any other big topics to discuss, we could certainly return to refunds or previous topics
**\<sarang>** There were suggestions from luigi1111 that the refunds needed for payment channels would be possible purely w/ timelocks + multisig
**\<binaryFate>** will look for some link on the zcash curve thing. It's part of their roadmap to reduce overhead to generate z-transactions iirc
**\<sarang>** I do not see how that would be possible without interaction from both parties, or a third-party arbiter
**\<sgp\_[m]>** I just want to mention that I'm working on preserving the integrity of outputs held by mining pools
**\<sarang>** But I'd love to be convinced otherwise
**\<rehrar[m]>** MRL corporate cheer!
**\<sarang>** sgp\_[m]: in response to the linking work?
**\<luigi1111>** It does require interaction at the start
**\<sarang>** right
**\<sarang>** it'd have to
**\<sarang>** So the recipient pre-signs for the refund?
**\<rehrar[m]>** I have a bit of other ZCash news.
**\<sgp\_[m]>** sarang kinda, yeah. I don't have too much to mention now though
**\<sarang>** How does the network verify the spend of the originally-intended output?
**\<sarang>** sgp\_[m]: ok, keep us updated
**\<sneurlax>** I've contacted ehanoc re: the "transaction tree" python toolkit and we will collaborate to deliver that after I finish the scraping tool which moneromooo asked for. mooo, I'll be sending you results this week
**\<sneurlax>** sorry to interject
**\<sarang>** sneurlax: excellent! That'll provide good data
**\<rehrar[m]>** ZCash wants to open a grant proposal jointly with a Monero community member (that'd be me atm) to donate a considerable sum of money to some FFS proposals.
**\<sarang>** What types of FFS do they want to fund?
**\<theRealSurae>** how would that work? would you have discretion over donating the funds?
**\<theRealSurae>** i'll almost always take free money if it's no-strings
**\<sarang>** Aw shucks, they like us!
**\<theRealSurae>** that's... fantastic
**\<rehrar[m]>** Dunno. When next round of bp auditing funds?
**\<rehrar[m]>** We can out it up, raise the amount, and take out right away. Superior Coin also wants to help if you recall.
**\<rehrar[m]>** Perhaps we can also get subaddresses audited?
**\<theRealSurae>** hmm
**\<sarang>** Yeah, was thinking of waiting until closer to the finalization, but I suppose there's little advantage if we can coordinate w/ OSTIF quickly
**\<theRealSurae>** it seems like a lot of projects want to funnel their research funding through the Monero FFS
**\<binaryFate>** the harder we criticize them the more they like us... 10k$ is not that much compared to amounts raised typically anyway
**\<sarang>** It's a nice gesture of community spirit though
**\<sgp\_[m]>** I think the best ones are the hardware wallet (which should work with Zcash iirc) and code audits
**\<rehrar[m]>** They're masochists binaryfate. If we criticize harder they'll give more.
**\<sarang>** A subaddress audit depends highly on the scope
**\<sarang>** The BP scope was narrow-ish
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: yeah, it seems like a largely symbolic thing, but also: they've been really encouraging me and sarang to encourage you guys to ask for grant money.
**\<theRealSurae>** rehrar[m]: i should just take zooko out to a bdsm club in denver, see if they offer us six or seven figures. :P
**\<rehrar[m]>** In return , we can send them Monero stickers to put on their laptops.
**\<sarang>** something something meat market
**\<theRealSurae>** meat meat something market
**\<binaryFate> \<rehrar[m]>** In return , we can send them Monero stickers to put on their laptops. <--theyhaveoneatleast,we'veputoneonzooko'sbackatCCCwithouthimnoticing
**\<sarang>** I'll be interested to see how the 10K is disbursed
**\<theRealSurae>** sarang: Is the implication that it would totally be up to our discretion? that's sort of what i'm getting...
**\<rehrar[m]>** Zooko is a dude.
**\<rehrar[m]>** I chilled with him in Colorado.
**\<rehrar[m]>** Can neither confirm nor deny Verge dev there too.
**\<theRealSurae>** What if we take the 10k, pay for a semester of a grad student working with some cryptographers to invent three new curves, a variant for secp256k1, a variant for x25519, and a variant for zcash's thing
**\<sarang>** tall order
**\<theRealSurae>** maybe
**\<endogenic>** sorry rehar
**\<theRealSurae>** it'd guarantee that student would spend the rest of his time in grad school working on that sort of thing
**\<theRealSurae>** which I think would be a valuable thing: seed the mind-virus among as many researchers as possible
**\<binaryFate>** They're not even asking for doing joint work with zcash stuff at this stage apparently. Would just channel to Monero topics entirely if possible.
**\<pwrcycle>** Hi all.
**\<binaryFate>** Anyway grad student is a great idea
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: yeah, that's the inference I made
**\<rehrar[m]>** I'll talk with Miller.
**\<rehrar[m]>** See how he wants to do the grant proposal.
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: the problem then is picking the student/school
**\<pwrcycle>** Funding grant money for school research seems cool. Pinning all the hopes on one grad student seems like a bad idea.
**\<theRealSurae>** rehrar[m]: please do, maybe CC me... I can hook him up with at least two cryptographers at Clemson who may be interested
**\<theRealSurae>** pwrcycle: yeah, you'd pick by advisor more than student
**\<rehrar[m]>** Maybe we can get some people to make a FFS that should have made one a while back in exchange for ZCash paper
**\<rehrar[m]>** Like dEBRYUNE
**\<rehrar[m]>** Then again, what use have gods for our petty currencies.
**\<binaryFate>** Btw having some sort of pulic call for the paid internship circulating in academic circles is as important as the thing actually happening, in terms of mind-virus spreading
**\<rehrar[m]>** Nothing more from me.
**\<theRealSurae>** rehrar[m]: you are the greatest orator of our time
**\<theRealSurae>** binaryFate: TRUE point
**\<theRealSurae>** very true
**\<theRealSurae>** sarang
**\<sarang>** yo
**\<theRealSurae>** when I get back I'm going to look into putting job postings on mathjobs.org
**\<theRealSurae>** i was about to ask you to do it while i'm gone, but it's not urgent and there's no need to delegate. :P if you're curious, though :D
**\<sarang>** I think using mathjobs is a really good idea for pure math applicants
**\<theRealSurae>** there are lots and lots of applied jobs on there too
**\<theRealSurae>** you should check it some time, but
**\<theRealSurae>** creation of a curve is at the intersection of applied algebraic geometry and pure cryptography
**\<sarang>** right, that wasn't what I meant
**\<theRealSurae>** so it's sort of both pure and applied
**\<theRealSurae>** oh ok
**\<sarang>** I mean to get solid reach to academics
**\<sarang>** that's the obvious choice
**\<theRealSurae>** yep
**\<sarang>** They can send us a list of all the points on their new curve, for us to check
**\<binaryFate>** good old emails circulating between labs and advisors ("if you have a really good students, consider asking them to apply. And please forward blabla") is also worth it. Reaches more senior people than a job posting probably read primarily by students directly.
**\<sarang>** Oh, so I've been seeing random reddit postings about deep reorgs
**\<sarang>** But I haven't looked into it at all
**\<sarang>** Anyone know anything?
**\<selsta>** also articles are starting to come out https://www.trustnodes.com/2018/05/07/monero-allegedly-attack-claims-double-spends-orphaned-chains-21-block-deep
**\<moneromooo>** I think it's fixed now (no PR yet).
**\<sarang>** Do you know the cause?
**\<theRealSurae>** is it known what the issue was?
**\<sarang>** jinx
**\<binaryFate>** The +20-blocks fork mentioned in the post is not an actual fork, you only see that when syncing. But somebody is fiddling with decent HR
**\<sarang>** buy me a DietMonero
**\<theRealSurae>** i thought the first few reports were possibly the OP for some reason
**\<binaryFate>** moneromooo link or summary?
**\<moneromooo>** Some init wasn't done in some cases when adding a tx.
**\<sarang>** Yeah, I want to be able to give correct information
**\<moneromooo>** So that was causing the tx to be rejected though it is valid.
**\<theRealSurae>** hrmm
**\<sarang>** OK, so that explains the "double spend" FUD
**\<sarang>** The long-chain reorgs are just related to initial sync?
**\<sarang>** It was noted that there wasn't any big spike in hashrate
**\<sarang>** so it's not outsiders coming online and futzing
**\<moneromooo>** If a pool doesn't accept a valid tx, it will continue mining on its own chain till it stops doing so.
**\<sarang>** OK, so it's a single cause with these two effects?
**\<moneromooo>** What two effects ?
**\<sarang>** Well the reports I've seen have complained about apparent double spends (rejected tx) and long-chain reorgs
**\<theRealSurae>** i feel like if a selfish miner was going to release a chain in an attack, the hashrate wouldn't necessarily look different to an observer, especially if the attacker had 33%+ attack power and was clever with their timestamp choice...
**\<moneromooo>** I don't know anything about double spends.
**\<moneromooo>** Though if a merchant is only connected to that pool, you could swindle it.
**\<moneromooo>** The merchant would have to be only connected to that pool though, but that's not a new attack.
**\<theRealSurae>** i don't like that article for a variety of reasons, but
**\<sarang>** Yeah that's the article I keep getting linked to
**\<sarang>** it's based on some r/monero complaint posts
**\<sarang>** so naturally it will be accepted as gospel and spread widely
**\<theRealSurae>** it would be helpful to get more information from the specific users making this complaint
**\<sarang>** A random user says one thing and the devs who know things say another thing! So there's no way to know!
**\<binaryFate> \<sarang>** It was noted that there wasn't any big spike in hashrate <--ifsomeoneispurposefullyminingonalternativeblocksratherthanwinningchain,wewouldnot"see"theHRspikeasitdoesnotmakeblockscomingfaster
**\<moneromooo>** You'd see a hashrate spike downwards.
**\<binaryFate>** only if that miner was mining before no?
**\<moneromooo>** Yes.
**\<theRealSurae>** not necessarily; an attacker with exactly 50% hash rate and honest timestamps will appear to be invisible. an attacker with lower hash rate could mess with timestamps slightly and appear invisible. an attacker with too low of a hash rate couldn't manipulate his timestamps enough to hide his activity
**\<binaryFate>** Can we check how long it took them to mine a particular altchain of N blocks by checking logs on other nodes on when the last block in their chain got known to peers?
**\<theRealSurae>** we can put a bound on it, for sure, and we can use that to estimate the hash rate power they have
