title: Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-09-16
summary: Community highlights, Forum Funding System discussions, workgroups and resources, Monero support, translations, open ideas time, and miscellaneous
**\<sgp>** Starting the meeting (on the correct channel this time)
**\<sgp>** 0. Introduction
**\<sgp>** We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting
**\<sgp>** Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/115
**\<serhack>** Hey
**\<sgp>** Monero Community meetings intend to be a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We plan to use this meeting and future meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
**\<sgp>** 1. Greetings
**\<cryptochangement>** hey all!
**\<msvb-lab>** Hi folks.
**\<erciccione>** hello
**\<hrumag>** Hi all
**\<Xil3>** hello
**\<QuickBASIC>** yo
**\<ajs>** hi
**\<rehrar>** yo yo
**\<parasew>** greets from riat.at
**\<0ak3y22>** hi
**\<sgp>** @rehrar will help me run the meeting today, since he's awesome and has a lot to say
**\<lafudoci>** Hi
**\<sgp>** 2. Community highlights
**\<serhack>** Okay
**\<sgp>** First and foremost, congrats on a successful hardfork! The community is calling them “protocol upgrades” to better explain what is happening to new community members: https://getmonero.org/2017/09/13/september-15-2017-protocol-upgrade-hard-fork.html
**\<erciccione>** yeee good job all
**\<serhack>** Great work!
**\<cryptochangement>** woo hoo!
**\<hrumag>** Good news, now we have also Monero Cash :) (joking)
**\<sgp>** This fork upped the minimum ringsize to 5, brought mandatory RinCT, and a ton of other improvements
**\<QuickBASIC>** 🎉
**\<sgp>** \*RingCT
**\<serhack>** thanks to devs, Monero is more secure than yesterday
**\<sgp>** TheMonera came out of seemingly nowhere and posted some amazing Monero posters on their website: https://www.themonera.art/
**\<sgp>** There were Monero meetups in Berlin, Silicon Valley, and Sheffield. I also learned that Monero Austria is still going strong and had a recent meeting in Linz (thanks @parasew!)
**\<parasew>** yay!
**\<cryptochangement>** thats pretty awesome
**\<sgp>** Does anyone else have some highlight they would like to add?
**\<parasew>** we will make more meetups in Vienna in the coming months,
**\<parasew>** also in case anyone of the community is ever around vienna, there are worktables in RIAT
**\<parasew>** in this case just ping me before, here are pics of the space:
**\<sgp>** \^ a pretty cool place
**\<parasew>** https://riat.ac.at/about
**\<parasew>** (on the pics its empty, there are tables inside now :)
**\<parasew>** last year we have been present at the CCC in hamburg with a "crypto lab",
**\<parasew>** where also fluffy and others from the community were coming,
**\<parasew>** this year we plan the same at the CCC in leipzig,
**\<parasew>** and also with a strong monero focus.
**\<parasew>** i will send more updates and infos as soon as i have them,
**\<sgp>** Good to hear. Keep us updated, and let us know what you need :)
**\<parasew>** but basically we are looking for presentations, etc. which we could present at the CCC
**\<serhack>** *cough monero Meetup Kit cough*
**\<parasew>** also i was reading that the hardware wallet is planned to presented at CCC, this could ofc also be in this context.
**\<msvb-lab>** parasew: I'll likely be at the 34C3. How do you propose I and others who want to join you communicate about this?
**\<parasew>** msvb-lab good question,
**\<endogenic>** msvb-lab: twitter group for monero attendees?
**\<endogenic>** Group -\> chat
**\<endogenic>** That's what we did for the Vegas party
**\<msvb-lab>** endogenic: Usually a group leader makes an 'assembly' entry in the 34C3 wiki, but we need to coordinate for that.
**\<parasew>** yes, or we can discuss this here in the channel? i will make sure to be around from now on, and can also announce it on reddit (so we have for example a specific date to discuss it irc)
**\<sgp>** This channel is fine. Feel free after the meeting
**\<msvb-lab>** parasew: Okay that's a good choice. After the meeting we'll keep hanging out...
**\<sgp>** I'm going to move on to the next topic to keep the meeting on schedule :)
**\<serhack>** :)
**\<sgp>** 3. FFS updates
**\<sgp>** For those new to the Monero community, the FFS stands for the Forum Funding System. It’s like a GoFundMe with Monero, where people can pitch ideas and receive payment when set tasks are completed.
**\<sgp>** There are several FFS updates, and Riccardo moved a bunch right before this meeting: https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/909095290531143681
**\<sgp>** My FFS for my meetup talks has moved to funding required: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/88081/justin-s-local-meetup-talks-proposal-3
**\<sgp>** moneromooo posted their FFS for October-December: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/88298/mooo-full-time-october-december
**\<cryptochangement>** its also a bit more controlled than gofundme so funds dont get released until "milestones" are hit
**\<sgp>** rehrar is expanding his community role by spending more time on Kovri (moved to funding required): https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/88390/assistant-for-kovri-project-management
**\<rehrar>** oh dang! So has mine! :D
**\<sgp>** Following the enthusiasm and suggestions form the last meeting, I have created a FFS for the Monero Meetup Kit: https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/88374/monero-meetup-kit
**\<sgp>** anonimal already offered some excellent advice when he suggested including Kovri stickers and pamphlets in the box too.
**\<sgp>** However, there are two that we would like to highlight during this meeting. The first is the second integrations FFS proposal: https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/88414/monero-integrations-second-ffs
**\<endogenic>** rehrar++
**\<sgp>** This is being proposed by serhack and cryptochangements. I would like to give them some time to discuss the basics of this proposal and what it means for the community. It was moved to funding required.
**\<serhack>** Yes @sgp Thanks for introduction
**\<serhack>** Okay let's discuss about our ffs
**\<tlehman101>** Hey, how would people feel about posting an informational monero guide and use case to the fakeids Reddit? It could concisely explain why it's better than Bitcoin for vendors and purchasers. Is it not worth it (reputation wise) to market to the dn?
**\<notmike>** greets community
**\<sgp>** @tlehman101 great topic for the open ideas time
**\<tlehman101>** My bad
**\<serhack>** So the first news is http://monerointegrations.com hits +500 views
**\<serhack>** Almost 100 views/a day
**\<serhack>** Xmr requested for ffs: 49
**\<serhack>** There will be three extension: whmcs, opencart and magento
**\<serhack>** Any questions?
**\<serhack>** cryptochangements ping
**\<msvb-lab>** Are all three PHP based, or python?
**\<serhack>** Php based
**\<cryptochangement>** php
**\<parasew>** serhack: there was also a post on reddit featuring an overview of integrations - i was also wondering why these specific implementations have been chosen by you
**\<msvb-lab>** Good to see Magento there, I think there's quite a community around it.
**\<serhack>** Currently nobody suggested me others famous e-shop with python
**\<msvb-lab>** serhack: How does your prestashop relate to this?
**\<serhack>** These specific integrations will be developed by me and cryptochangements
**\<cryptochangement>** the platforms choosen last time where simply because they are very popular
**\<msvb-lab>** For those who don't know, Prestashop is a plugin to a Wordpress type ecommerce package. It's quite polished, looks ready for prime time but is not stand alone.
**\<serhack>** I'm doing some testing in order to maintain woocommerce and prestashop
**\<serhack>** No, msvb-lab
**\<serhack>** Woocommerce is a plugin of wordpress
**\<cryptochangement>** prestashop does not run on wordpress
**\<cryptochangement>** prestashop *is* prettymuch stand alone
**\<serhack>** And prestashop is a cms powered on e-shop features
**\<msvb-lab>** Prestashop is stand alone, oh nice.
**\<serhack>** ;)
**\<parasew>** here was an overview of systems and integrations on reddit from yesterday https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/704igy/shoutout_to_serhack_and_the_monero_integrations/dn1k2ob/
**\<0ak3y22>** magento is the main one
**\<serhack>** What do you think about developing an e-shop only for Monero?
**\<0ak3y22>** i would accept monero if it got magento
**\<serhack>** Is that cool?
**\<ajs>** like a shopping cart
**\<serhack>** Okay @0ak3y22
**\<rehrar>** I wonder if we can develop a shopping cart option that doesn't use Javascript?
**\<msvb-lab>** NodeJS.
**\<serhack>** We can rehrar
**\<serhack>** Lol msvb-lab
**\<msvb-lab>** NodeJS, please. Not Lol, it would be a great interface.
**\<cryptochangement>** rehrar its possible, but most e-commerce solutions use js anyways
**\<serhack>** I'm going to eat now
**\<serhack>** Cryptochangements you have the control of discussion
**\<serhack>** Bye
**\<rehrar>** Understood, but there's many who might prefer no JS
**\<cryptochangement>** ok cool
**\<sgp>** @cryptochangements anything else you want to talk about
**\<cryptochangement>** that could be something to look into
**\<erciccione>** i agree with rehar, would be great to avoid js
**\<erciccione>** *rehrar
**\<cryptochangement>** one more thing sgp
**\<cryptochangement>** give me a second to type it out haha
**\<cryptochangement>** if you look at the FFS thread, serhack mentioned a possible fourth milestone. this would be a standalone open source e-shop platform that accepts only monero. no need to rely on third parties like wordshop or magento. the goal would be to allow anyone to download that software, put it up on your server, and be able to setup an e-shop that accepts only monero
**\<cryptochangement>** creating out own platform would also fee us up to to do things like making sure that everything works well without js
**\<rehrar>** a CMS-agnostic platform, yeah?
**\<parasew>** cryptochangement: this would be php/mysql or js?
**\<cryptochangement>** php/mysql and prefferanly zero js
**\<cryptochangement>** \*prefferably
**\<Xil3>** sounds great
**\<parasew>** cryptochangement: ok (because you wrote: need feedback)
**\<rehrar>** As a web dev, I see some potential problems for this, but I can discuss them on the FFS proposal itself for the sake of time
**\<selsta>** I would like something like cloakvpn.com.. They use the payment ID for username + password, thus not requiring an account
**\<selsta>** but I think that would be easy to implement
**\<cryptochangement>** ok, thanks rehrar. you could also pm me if you want
**\<sgp>** @cryptochangement I'm going to move on to another discussion now, ok?
**\<cryptochangement>** sounds good
**\<sgp>** The second FFS proposal being discussed is the dedicated Monero hardware wallet. Community feedback was gathered during the last meeting, and it has now moved on to Funding Required: https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/88149/dedicated-monero-hardware-wallet
**\<sgp>** I now would like to ask msvb-lab to speak more about this proposal.
**\<msvb-lab>** One month of prestart research has yielded a proposal to contribute (fund, provide ideas, anything else) to Monero's first dedicated hardware wallet:
**\<msvb-lab>** I wrote the proposal, will devote a half year's work, and can answer questions now... Any ideas, questions, or opinions?
**\<sgp>** It's a large and respectable undertaking
**\<quickbasic>** What is it going to do that Ledger won't be able to?
**\<msvb-lab>** sgp: It's a bit big, yes. The perception to break the FFS into individual months is a bit hard though.
**\<selsta>** an open-source alternative to Ledger would be beneficial in the long run
**\<rehrar>** imo, the people who are saying that Ledger is doing it already so what's the point, aren't looking at the big picture. The ultimate goal (at least as I see it), is to make things as decentralized and trustless as possible. Having an open-source hardware wallet (software AND hardware) is invaluable.
**\<hyc>** Isn't the Ledger code already open source?
**\<msvb-lab>** quickbasic: There are a few differences, opensource is one, it's possible that Ledger fails to do crypto for us in hardware due to our different ECDSA curve.
**\<msvb-lab>** hyc: Closed source.
**\<msvb-lab>** The Bluetooth model that will cost $300 is a bit more open, but still fails in the SE department.
**\<pero>** i see you want to talk to gemalto? i have some experience with them and would think they're much too large to have any interest in this
**\<msvb-lab>** And I'm not sure how many folks want a hardware wallet that is accessible over RF.
**\<quickbasic>** Okay. Makes total sense.
**\<hyc>** yeah, bluetooth seems like a misfeature here
**\<msvb-lab>** pero: I don't hold too much promise for Gemalto, but if you have experience please make yourself available for a question or two later?
**\<msvb-lab>** By the way, there's a ton of can of worms type questions with this six month FFS.
**\<pero>** i used to share an office with a former c level exec there so just have anecdotal info
**\<msvb-lab>** We can't answer them here, but I'm usually around on IRC and tomorrow again during the dev meeting.
**\<smauginjapan>** msvb-lab, I agree with hyc, I think the goal is to not necessarily have as many features as possible, but instead concentrate on bulletproof security.
**\<selsta>** imo Ledger is still a company and they can decide not support Monero at any time
**\<rehrar>** excellent point selsta
**\<msvb-lab>** selsta: Yes, that's another problem with not having control but...
**\<msvb-lab>** Lets not bash Ledger too much, they are doing a great job.
**\<msvb-lab>** We need Ledger, Trezor, and all the others on board and working with Monero just as we do our own dedicated wallet as well.
**\<selsta>** (just as an example as they are the “alternative”)
**\<sgp>** Anything else, or can we keep moving?
**\<smauginjapan>** an open hardware wallet is an equaliser to potential shennanigans by other companies .
**\<msvb-lab>** sgp: If we're behind schedule then move on. Otherwise I'll say a few more things about the dedicated hardware wallet.
**\<msvb-lab>** We can move on.
**\<sgp>** @msvb-lab thanks. If there's time left you can have it
**\<msvb-lab>** ...if you want to donate. Or more questions, come back for tomorrow's dev meeting.
**\<sgp>** This is a big announcement that has been in the works for quite some time. Rehrar will give a brief word on what workgroups are, and some exciting new resources that the Monero Project is offering for free to budding workgroups.
**\<msvb-lab>** Same time, but the -dev IRC channel.
**\<rehrar>** Hey everyone. So we got some big stuff to talk about.
**\<rehrar>** I'll be submtting a document to the Monero Project Meta repo soon about Workgroups and what they are
**\<rehrar>** for now, I'd just like to paste some relevant portions of the document to answer the questions of what workgroups are, and why we need them:
**\<rehrar>** "Because Monero does not have a central structure in which to manage every project that comes from individuals or groups, Monero has a great strength (which can also be considered a weakness is some circumstances) of being an initiative-based project. This means that if something is not being done, and an individual or group would like it to be done, they should do it instead of wait for others to do it."
**\<rehrar>** "The Monero Project thrives when the community is given the freedom to work on projects that they have both passion and ability for, and is at its worst when everyone expects everyone else to get things done (often for free)."
**\<rehrar>** "A Monero Workgroup is defined as a grassroots initiative by an individual or group with the intent of furthering The Monero Project."
**\<rehrar>** "Monero Workgroups can take many forms. Some might be formal, with a defined leadership, bylaws, and dues, and others might be informal, with a fluid membership and loosely defined goals. Each workgroup is free to make their own goals and structures, and doesn't need anyone's permission to operate, or even exist."
**\<rehrar>** A big example of a functioning workgroup is the Monero Community Workgroup (you're at the meeting held by this workgroup right now)
**\<rehrar>** There was another workgroup in the past with a bit more of a formalized structure called the Monero Economic Workgroup, which you can read about in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=776479.0
**\<rehrar>** shoot we got monerobux in here?
**\<pero>** yes thanks to the monerobux advancement workgroup
**\<serhack>** Good rehrar
**\<rehrar>** If you have any questions on what Workgroups are, feel free to PM me, and look forward to the document which should be up today or tomorrow
**\<rehrar>** Now that we know a bit more about workgroups in general, we'd like to unveil our two newest workgroup environments: Mattermost and Taiga.
**\<parasew>** rehrar, sounds amazing.
**\<cryptochangement>** sounds awesome
**\<msvb-lab>** Cool, heard about Mattermost.
**\<rehrar>** First: Mattermost
**\<rehrar>** You can access Mattermost at https://mattermost.getmonero.org at any time. You can think of it as an open-sourced, self-hosted Slack alternative. And while we do have a slack, we would like to encourage the community to sign up here and begin using it over slack. This way, The Monero Project has control over the data and conversations, and not some third-party. We want to distance ourselves from using proprietary software
**\<rehrar>** as much as possible. Of course, it is relayed to IRC.
**\<rehrar>** In the same way, we are also unveiling the Monero Taiga instance, which can be accessed at https://taiga.getmonero.org. Taiga is an open-sourced, self-hosted agile development environment. Put simply, it can be used like GitHub for non-coders to make projects, make goals for those projects, assign people to teams and to fulfill tasks, and more. It's a great resource, and will even integrate with Mattermost soon.
**\<ArticMine>** This all sounds great
**\<xmrmatterbridge> \<serhack>** hey
**\<rehrar>** You'll find the Monerujo (android mobile wallet) already on there, as well as Revuo Monero and Kovri
**\<Xil3>** very nice
**\<cryptochangement>** great
**\<rehrar>** You can learn more about Agile Development in videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8dYLbJiTUE
**\<rehrar>** and with a bit of research, you can use a lot of cool stuff that Taiga has to offer
**\<serhack>** Monero Integrations too
**\<rehrar>** I'll be making write-ups for both of these environments soon
**\<rehrar>** We could go on and talk about the specifics about any of these things for a while, so in the interest of moving the meeting along, we'll instead answer any questions that anybody has about these two new environments after the meeting.
**\<sgp>** Very exciting resources for the community
**\<selsta>** so Taiga is an implementation of Kanban?
**\<rehrar>** it uses Kanban and Scrum
**\<rehrar>** as well as Epics
**\<rehrar>** and they all integrate with each other, and you can have one, or both on, and turn them off at will
**\<pero>** taiga is a pm tool that's made to work with agile/scrum/kanban pm methodologies
**\<rehrar>** You can make and manage your own projects.
**\<rehrar>** Basically, we're empowering and enabling the community to take charge of the direction Monero is going.
**\<rehrar>** Alright, let's move on.
**\<rehrar>** 5. Monero Support
**\<serhack>** A lot of news
**\<rehrar>** Not everyone knows, but we have a subreddit for Monero Support that we would like to start utilizing. You can go to https://reddit.com/r/monerosupport and help by answering or asking questions. This is in the effort of keeping the Monero ecosystem understandable, uncluttered, and user-friendly. Please subscribe and lend a helping hand when somebody comes in with a question.
**\<rehrar>** The transition will take some time, since there are many more people on /r/Monero than /r/MoneroSupport. However, we are confident that the community is large enough for there to be two distinct subreddits.
**\<rehrar>** We would like to reference StackExchange as often as possible in this subreddit. These two resources will work together. You can almost think of Monero Support as a less formal StackExchange.
**\<rehrar>** End goal: a cleaner Monero Reddit ecosystem for everyone. :)
**\<cryptochangement>** get ready to answer blockhain sync questions everyone!
**\<rehrar>** Unless there's any thoughts on that, we'll move on as we're running short on time
**\<rehrar>** 6. Translations
**\<rehrar>** Erciccione started #monero-translations to help people with, well, translations. If you have other languages at your disposal, consider dropping by and saying hello.
**\<erciccione>** yep, i have a couple of things to say that i just wrote down
**\<rehrar>** As an update on software, Monero Translations is trying a few different open-source, self-hosted (can you tell we like that kinda stuff) alternatives to Transifex
**\<rehrar>** sure, go for it
**\<serhack>** Great @erciccione
**\<erciccione>** thanks, as rehrar was saying the Monero Localization WorkGroup is formed, our home is at monero-translations (IRC, Slack). I encurage everybody interested in translating monero to ask there for both help (github issues, info, ecc) aswell for coordinating
**\<erciccione>** During the last weeks we checked about 5-6 platforms, but only two of them had all the requirements we needed (many platforms had problems with static websites, markdown or QT). This two were Transifex and Weblate
**\<erciccione>** The common feeling was to avoid Transifex since is closed source, so last week i started setting up a test instance for weblate, but i found some issues that neither rehrar or serhack could solve, so
**\<parasew>** erciccione, this sounds amazing. i have a few people who wanted to translate, will send them along.
**\<erciccione>** Today we started checking Pootle, from a quick check looks like is compatible and has nice reviews, but it will be nice if somebody inside the community could give some feedbacks about this platform
**\<erciccione>** thanks parasew that would be great
**\<erciccione>** i want also say that the amount of translations in the last months increased significantly (kovri docs, promo video script, GUI translations), thanks to everybody
**\<parasew>** ErCiccione: you mean feedback from a tech perspective?
**\<serhack>** I think yes parasew
**\<erciccione>** yes would be nice to have some info from who used it in past
**\<rehrar>** Ok. We're running really short on time. Anything else on this? :)
**\<erciccione>** i'm done
**\<sgp>** Unfortunately, there isn’t enough time for #7: Open ideas time. However, feel free to discuss your ideas whenever in this channel.
**\<rehrar>** Awesome.
**\<sgp>** 8. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<sgp>** The next meeting will two weeks from today on 30 September at 17:00 UTC. It will be the Saturday before the dev meetings. This meeting time seems to work out for most people.
**\<sgp>** 9. Conclusion
**\<parasew>** i will install pootle and report back
**\<sgp>** That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
**\<sgp>** (side discussions can now continue, or if anyone has any open ideas to discuss)
**\<hyc>** question - is bitcointalk Monero Support forum still supported? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=652305.0;topicseen
**\<erciccione>** thanks parasew, we can talk about it in monero-translations
**\<parasew>** erciccione sure! i am just a bit sick so lets move it to the coming days :)
**\<hyc>** it seems overall the community has shifted entirely to reddit.
**\<msvb-lab>** erciccione: Is monero-translations an IRC channel?
**\<erciccione>** parasew: sure no problem :slightly\_smiling\_face: get well soon!
**\<erciccione>** msvb-lab: yes we have irc relay
**\<parasew>** msvb-lab regarding the CCC i suggest to talk in the coming days if thats ok for you. i sent you a PM with my email.
**\<smauginjapan>** hyc, seems that way, the thread is mostly inactive, and that's probably a good thing too as use of bct should be eschewed wherever possible.
**\<msvb-lab>** parasew: That suits me well, I'm going to afk for the day but really want to collaborate with you for 34C3.
**\<msvb-lab>** sgp: Thanks for moderating a great meeting. Good job, even with the full agenda and lively discussions.
**\<msvb-lab>** rehrar too, I guess he was the guest moderator.
**\<smauginjapan>** msvb-lab, your proposal is already half funded too :)
**\<tlehman101>** Sorry for interrupting earlier, posted before realizing the discussion was going on. I curious how people feel about posting an informational monero guide and use case to the fakeids Reddit? It could concisely explain why it's better than Bitcoin for vendors and purchasers. Is it not worth it (reputation wise) to market to the dn?
**\<pigeons>** i don't want to have association with that
**\<hyc>** agreed. they come to us if they want to. we don't market to them.
**\<smauginjapan>** tlehman101, facilitating criminal activity on reddits is asking for trouble.
**\<msvb-lab>** smauginjapan: Yes, I'm quite happy with the level of funding so far. It's only been active for exactly 24 hours.
**\<tlehman101>** Fair enough
**\<tlehman101>** The dnm guy garnered a lot of attention
**\<smauginjapan>** msvb-lab, for such a significant amount I'm actually really surpriced :), I expected it'd take weeks to get to that level.
**\<msvb-lab>** tlehman101: I saw your comment and the idea is right on. There are a couple similar resources you might want to copy, distinguish your project from, or collaborate with?
**\<msvb-lab>** And it would be nice to get a Monero version of:
**\<msvb-lab>** http://learnmeabitcoin.com/guide/
**\<smauginjapan>** tlehman101, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done mind you, I'm just saying it shouldn't be done around people whose real identities are known ;)
**\<pigeons>** you can'tstop people from using monero but you don't have to encourage things that are problematic
**\<msvb-lab>** smauginjapan: I have mixed feelings about the amount, because it is large to fund machines (rather than humans) and raises pressure to get the job done (potential for sleepless nights and health damage.)
**\<smauginjapan>** Monero is all about privacy after all
**\<msvb-lab>** ...but the amount is accurate so there's no path to improvement.
**\<hyc>** Monero is for everyone. we can write docs for everyone to learn how to use it. we don't aim the docs at one specific group.
**\<smauginjapan>** msvb-lab, heh, yeah, it's a big undertaking, but you shouldn't feel alone though.
**\<hyc>** after that, it's up to individuals to be smart enough to realize that it benefits them to use it.
**\<msvb-lab>** smauginjapan: The positive part of mixed feelings is obviously that the individual tasks before the project succeeds are very challenging, interesting, and rewarding.
**\<msvb-lab>** Maybe even could say fun...
**\<smauginjapan>** indeed, a brave new world :). The hardware wallet path has been trodden a couple times though, so theres at least a trail of crumbs to follow ;)
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Just read / skimmed the meeting, but I disagree on moving threads to r/monerosupport already fwiw
**\<pero>** why
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Also we shouldn't reference stack exchange too much. It's fine to reference guides, but don't direct them to there, otherwise it'll clutter the SE
**\<dEBRUYNE>** pero: I wrote something about this a few weeks ago, let me try to find it
**\<hyc>** It's good to add solved questions to SE, and point duplicate questions there
**\<pero>** yea im sure you have a reason i'd agree with - just curious what it is ;p
**\<hyc>** at this point 99% of incoming questions have been answered before
**\<dEBRUYNE>** pero: "Kind of ambivalent on this since it's a two sided coin. Yes, it'll give this subreddit a cleaner look. However, it's more likely that their questions won't get answered as there are way more people browsing this sub. Moreover, I think it's beneficial to give newcomers a warm welcome by helping them out with their issues. If their questions don't get answered it may result in a negative experience and deterring them from getting
**\<dEBRUYNE>** involved with Monero. Furthermore, bear in mind that most of us also once started as noobs. I'll just leave this thread open to gauge the community's opinion.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** "
**\<pigeons>** yeah it can be real helpful and useful to have SE answers to point to for reference and consistency
**\<pero>** hmmm - well r/monerosupport was my idea
**\<pero>** but my 'design' for it was to have it prepopulated with a FAQ
**\<pero>** so that it doesnt start off empty
**\<smauginjapan>** dEBRUYNE, agreed, I know in the early days of bitcoin i started the sub bitcoinhelp, and it was barely used, as users simply gravitated to the most well known/used one.
**\<selsta>** if I understood correctly there won’t be an enforced rule that questions are banned on /r/monero, just that as we grow we should shift to /r/monerosupport
**\<pero>** unfortunately you cant comment on reddit threads older than 6 months so it might be challenging to keep answers uptodate over time
**\<smauginjapan>** you'd need to persistently ferry users to the new sub, and have some regulars dedicate to answering questions.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** pigeons, hyc: Yeah that's what I meant. Reference existing SE Q&A / guides to them, but ensure they don't open new questions (if not warranted) to avoid the SE getting cluttered
**\<hyc>** yeah
**\<smauginjapan>** similar to how r/xmrtrader has been rolled out.
**\<hyc>** xmrtrader has enough general interest to be self-sufficient
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I honestly doubt our community is currently big enough to warrant a seperate sub
**\<hyc>** I personally have little desire to frequent a support form
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Also support can be tricky from time to time
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As users can have very specific issues
**\<pero>** well the main sub is definitely spammed with enough support questions that it's diluting the discourse
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I personally don't mind helping them in r/monero, but I wouldn't like having to browse an additional sub for it
**\<dEBRUYNE>** The support threads don't get much upvotes anyway
**\<hyc>** agreed with dEBRUYNE
**\<smauginjapan>** yep, it got to a stage where regular price questions were redirected often enough that users moved to the sub for financial stuff.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** The relevant stuff is at the top
**\<pero>** whether those questions spilling over would be enough to sustain a separate sub is a slightly different question
**\<smauginjapan>** a similar concerted effort would be needed with the monerosupport reddit I think.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Sure, in the future somewhere
**\<dEBRUYNE>** But it's too early now imo
**\<smauginjapan>** dEBRUYNE, that's the other challenge, once they get their problem/question answered, they rarely return.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Could you elaborate?
**\<smauginjapan>** well, if people are redirected to a separate sub for support q's, it's difficult to keep them returning.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I still don't get it :p
**\<dEBRUYNE>** returning how?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** As in new support questions?
**\<smauginjapan>** maintinaing a presence at the monerosupport sub
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Well the people asking for help there are generally not the people that are (initially) capable of helping others
**\<smauginjapan>** yes, thats the thing, to make it work, you'd need to initially have a dedicated group that'd be arounf to answer q's and troubleshoot support problems, similar to how #monero works.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Right, but statiscally it's more likely there will be someone able to help in r/monero than r/monerosupport
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Thing is, I am not even sure if we could gather a dedicated group at this point
**\<smauginjapan>** it'd mostly be an altruistic thing, and that can be difficult to make self sufficient without a lot of upfront work, as well as having enough users cycling through to pick up new ones.
**\<smauginjapan>** dEBRUYNE, yes, I agree, it'd be hard, and is probably not the right time, once /r/monero hits 100k, then monerosupport will probably kick off much more easily.
**\<smauginjapan>** /r/bitcoinbeginners was initiated at around 80k /r/bitcoin users I think, and was able to create enough of a userbase to stay active.
**\<pero>** well reddit actually designs with this scenario pretty well
**\<pero>** posts from smaller subs tend to float rather high on your front page
**\<pero>** so all it would really take is a small number of regular, informed users subscribing to the smaller sub
**\<pero>** they'll see the question posts on their frontpages after only a couple upvotes
**\<pero>** designed for\*
**\<smauginjapan>** It'll require active participation from other subs to push users to monerosupport to get those threads there initially though.
**\<pero>** well yes the idea is that the main sub implements a rule that support questions are banned
**\<pero>** and that support questions are answered with a link to the support sub prior to removing the thread
**\<pero>** else there's no point
**\<smauginjapan>** that'll never work
**\<pero>** of course it will
**\<pero>** it works in fucking r/linux why wouldnt it work in r/morono
**\<smauginjapan>** healthy communities aren't built on bullying.
**\<DaveyJones>** serhack ... did you try to reach out to bigreddmachine already? you could do the podcast with him and maybe also get some further reach with monerointegrations
**\<pero>** they aren't built on people pulling half baked ideas out of their ass either
**\<serhack>** no, daveyJones
**\<serhack>** I'm not able to speak english very well
**\<pero>** so either you have an actual reason for why it wouldnt work or you can just skip this discussion and wait for one on which you have a well informed opinion
**\<smauginjapan>** pero, I literally removed you after 4 months of being on my ignore list, and you've within 45 mins, managed to put yourself back on it. I really don't know why I bothered giving you a third chance. Thankyou for saving myself a great deal of time.
**\<dEBRUYNE>** \<pero> and that support questions are answered with a link to the support sub prior to removing the thread \<= We do that with mining related questions currently
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Because the mining sub is big enough to warrant it
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I rarely see a question not getting answered there
**\<pero>** yea so why wouldnt work with general support qs?
**\<pero>** wouldnt it\*
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Because support questions are probably more tricky
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Also we don't have enough people that are capable of continously answering those questions
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Like ferret said, we can probably make that move once the sub hits 100k
**\<ajs>** @serhack@bigreddmachine maybe it can be done in Italian and have a voice over English translation a la BBC... we have monero-translations now after all... it would give it a more international feel
**\<pero>** well i think after running a sticky about the support sub for a couple months it'll have enough recruits
**\<serhack>** \@ajs lol :)
**\<pero>** i think the primary motivator here is that the main subreddit is being cluttered with support qs
**\<pero>** now, what to do about that?
**\<pero>** i've seen multiple instances of this issue on reddit being addressed by a separate sub
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Define cluttered
**\<dEBRUYNE>** Like I said, the relevant stuff is at the top
**\<pero>** we all have, even within the monero community, as you pointed out
**\<pero>** so why not go with the tried and tested solution, it might be painful at first, but if it doesn't work out after a lengthy period of time, we can always scrap the idea
**\<pero>** well there are times when half of the top 10 is support qs
**\<pero>** anyhow, i gotta jet...
**\<pero>** i really feel the idea of the support sub is sound
**\<pero>** but it does require buy-in from the r/monero mods as well as a prepulated FAQ of some sort
**\<pero>** hmm
**\<pero>** could we maybe code a bot that would automatically crosspost a question in the main sub that's marked as support q
**\<pero>** and close it
**\<pero>** so that the original poster doesnt even have to do anything?
**\<dEBRUYNE>** There's more guarantee of success if the sub is bigger fwiw. Why would we suddenly start now?
**\<pero>** well i suggested this like 6 months ago
**\<pero>** so it's more of a question of why arent we doing it already for me
**\<xmrmatterbridge> \<sgp>** We kinda need to just start it I suppose. I'm not sure what prep is necessary. StackExchange already has a wealth of info
**\<pero>** the main sub is way past 'large enough' imo
**\* pero** vanishes
**\<dEBRUYNE>** I personally think it's not a good idea at this point. I'll leave it at that for now
**\<antw081>** We should just hire someone to curate a "daily best of r/Monero" for pero so he doesn't have to browser through the regular r/Monero and be offended at the newbie support questions :P
