**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 8. Any additional meeting items
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 9. Confirm next meeting date/time
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Hi
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Hi
**\<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-moneromooo}** Hi
**\<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-pero}** hi
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** Greetings.
**\<boomlol23>** hi
**\<fluffypony>** ola
**\<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-ArticMine}** hi
**\<maoam>** hi
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Lots of refactoring, some fixes.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** New contributor olark/olarks!
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Welcome olark!
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** o/
**\<fluffypony>** welcome olark
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Anything else on 2.?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** (olark has been doing great work + tackling a huge learning curve. very cool)
**\<fluffypony>** olark
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** lots of refactoring ;)
**\<fluffypony>** maybe you can give us a brief background on you
**\<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-Slack} \<nanoakron>** How’s the documentation looking to make that learning curve more shallow for future developers?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** (e.g., favourite book, long walks on the beach, etc.)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** nanoakron: moneropedia. We can talk more about that at the end of the meeting too.
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** Have been programming for the last 3-4 years on and off. Just getting back into C++ have followed Monero and Kovri for the last year or so and figured I should stop procrastinating and help move things forward.
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** Also long time i2p user, so I know what's up.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** lol, badge of honor.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Alright, well we're glad to have more hands on deck.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Anything else before moving onto 3.?
**\<meeting-bot> [olark]** Haha thanks fluffypony
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 3. fluffypony's request for finished logo
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** fluffypony: ^
**\<fluffypony>** yes
**\<fluffypony>** ok this logo has taken WAY too much time
**\<fluffypony>** I know that logos are kinda-permanent, but it's holding other stuff up
**\<boomlol23>** why are all msgs going through meetingbot..
**\<fluffypony>** boomlol23: because we're spread out over multiple networks
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** fluffypony: what's the best solution for now?
**\<boomlol23>** ok
**\<fluffypony>** I'd like to have the logo by the end of the meeting
**\<fluffypony>** if colours are an issue let's just stick with the original colours
**\<fluffypony>** we can ALWAYS change it later
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Wait, we still haven't decided on the logo?
**\<fluffypony>** EinMByte: we have
**\<fluffypony>** but then there were font and kerning and colour changes
**\<ontario>** new monero logo?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** ontario: kovri logo
**\<fluffypony>** ontario: no Kovri logo, we're in the Kovri meeting now
**\<ontario>** k sry
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok, can pero send you the finished work then?
**\<fluffypony>** np :)
**\<fluffypony>** yes please
**\<sornros>** may I ask if I understood correctly that the i2p code will be rewritten in c++?
**\<meeting-bot> \* anonimal** has to move onto next item....
**\<fluffypony>** either uploading somewhere or ric@getmonero.org
**\<pero>** i thought i 'submitted' the final one last weekend - i'd like to make one tiny half pixel change if i can
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** sornros: we can answer more after the meeting
**\<fluffypony>** sornros: it already is being - https://github.com/monero-project/kovri
**\<pero>** i'll email it to both fluffypony and anonimal shortly
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Anything else on 3.?
**\<sornros>** thanks
**\<pero>** with the monero colors
**\<fluffypony>** no that's anonimal, tks
**\<pero>** http://imgur.com/a/xCaZV fyi
**\<fluffypony>** that's it
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 4. ∫alti as Monero project
**\<fluffypony>** pero: ok perfect - if you can send it to me after the pixel change
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** sure
**\<pero>** half-pixel :P
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: I had some thoughts unless you wanted to dive into anything first
**\<sornros>** thats a nice logo, I like the font too
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** anonimal: No go ahead
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** We've moved on sornros.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: since I haven't spent any time researching webextensions, can we *for sure* do what we want to achieve with XUL/XPCOM?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I'm thinking we consider brushing aside the deprecation issue for now and someone can pick it up in the future?
**\<PowerFlower>** hi sorry for being late -_- I hope its not too late. Simple question: Will be the GUI released before the next XMR core release in ?Januaray?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It depends what exactly we want to achieve
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** If we *can* do that now, we could move it into monero-project and it will gain more attention.
**\<fluffypony>** PowerFlower: this is the Kovri meeting, you'll have to hold that question for later
**\<PowerFlower>** okay :)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: well, the easy stuff for starters re: profile. We can do that, right?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** anonimal: If we accept that the user will have to use the plugin with a separate profile, then we can do everything we need with webextensions I guess
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Can we create the profile using webextensions? Probably not
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Then again, people are apparently smart enough to run TBB, so if necessary we can create a script to create the firefox profile
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I think that was what we were going for
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Problem with XUL is that 1) it's deprecated so development will only get worse for us 2) harder to port to other browsers (contrary to webextensions)
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It seems like a bad idea to start creating a plugin with deprecated technology
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Where's the definite deprecation date though?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** There is none (very vague, IIRC)
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It's also not clear if e.g. it will be deprecated for firebird
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** (in fact, does anyone know if firebird itself is (going to be) deprecated?)
**\<meeting-bot> \* anonimal** doesn't know
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** So, we are in a good position to influence webext development: they are still taking feature requests, etc. If we get *something* going now, there is a far better likely hood of a webdev coming along to contribute than if we have a mostly empty repo.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** And I can't find a date for deprecation, should we really base a great idea on what-if's?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Yes, I agree. My spare time does not though
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I know, nor mine, but I've semi-frequently seen people popping in and out of #monero-dev wanting to contribute to non-c++ projects.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Well, we know for sure it will be deprecated. Just not when. That sounds bad to me, so better try and do it with webext imho
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok, so maybe what we should do now then is write a definite roadmap/readme that will give others a better understanding of wth we are talking about.
**\<meeting-bot> [i2p-relay] {-ArticMine}** I have to leave
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: I think we can easily do that for now. Then, once we are more certain about our webext strategy, bring up this topic at another meeting?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** If roadmap is too much, at least improve our readme.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** anonimal: That's probably a good idea.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Sure.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** I agree that we should first see if we can actually do what we want to do, so for example: can we change all of the necessary settings
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok, sounds great. Anything else on 4.?
**\<maoam>** a short readme would be nice
**\<realsony>** EinMbyte may i ask for your GIT repository name i couldn't find it
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: did you get a chance to review #1?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** I read it
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Not sure if I can agree with converting it to a library
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It should be the other way around, IMHO
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** qtoopie is based on I2PControl, with the idea of making it router-agnostic
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** As it, you don't think it's possible or don't think it *should* be done or don't want it to be done?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** So what part would you rather see as the lib?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** If monero's gui needs it's own i2pcontrol then that's fine; I'm just trying to avoid repetition.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It depends on what we want: if we want to build a router-agnostic GUI, I think I2PControl is the best option. In that case we could simply bundle qtoopie + kovri router and release this as an easy-to-use router package
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** If we want to build a GUI specifically for kovri, then we can rely on the (currently not existing) kovri API (libcore/libclient)
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** But in that case too, it would not really make sense for it to be a library. Instead, it would be comparable to what kovri-app currently is, except that it would be a GUI rather than CLI
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** re: API, that's what the monero gui will be using, but where could we eliminate redundancy if the API and i2pcontrol would also do some of the more basic things that i2pcontrol provides?
**\<fluffypony>** I2PControl would be able to control Kovri + Java i2p etc. right?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** My original idea for qtoopie is that it would fork for all exiting I2P routers that support I2PControl.
**\<fluffypony>** oh I missed the "based on"
**\<fluffypony>** ok makes sense
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** So the redundancy is not eliminated at the level of the kovri implementation, but instead at all implementations (no need for a specific GUI)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: Ok, that I understand. But there's really no way to create libqtoopie so the monero gui can use it *now* (even in it's current state)?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Why create extra monero gui code and i2pcontrol impl when that's already done?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** This doesn't change the functionality of qtoopie. I'm just basing this off what you said when I brought up the lib idea a while ago.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Sure, monero can use qtoopie directly
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** If it's more work than not, and adversely effects qtoopie, then I understand.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** at least in the sense "you can display the windows defined in the qtoopie project"
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** I guess that would classify as a library.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** The question is why you would want to bundle it like that
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** (you could also just provide the executable with the monero executables, and then open this from the monero GUI, there would be little difference to the end use)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** To save redundant code so people don't have to install qtoopie to use qtoopie; and so it's integrated with the monero gui.
**\<fluffypony>** can't we have our own controls in the GUI
**\<fluffypony>** with bindings to libqtoopie functions ?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** fluffypony: own controls to API, sure.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** fluffypony: libqtoopie, EinMByte would know; I imagined yes.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** By the way, for reference on i2pcontrol: http://zzz.i2p/topics/2030-proposal-bundle-i2pcontrol, http://zzz.i2p/topics/1942-i2pcontrol-for-generic-user-interfaces
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** If you want to have your own controls, there's not much point in using all of qtoopie
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** then you just need to use i2pcontrol
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** (which is very simple to implement; or you could use the part of qtoopie that deals with this)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte I think you're missing the point but I'm probably not explaining my intentions well.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** So, libqtoopie: not needed. qtoopie: agnostic but will not be in library form.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** We will create our own controls that use the API
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** qtoopie is an end-user program, hence why I'd say "not in library form"
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I know EinMByte, I'm just trying to save time and code.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** We could take some of the code in qtoopie and put it in a library "libi2pcontrol-client"
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** This library could then be used by e.g. monero
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** i2pcontrol is insanely overrated, seriously overrated in relation to as much time as we're talking about it.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** But this is assuming that monero would be using i2pcontrol at all
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I don't see the point if there are API's in place.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** And i2pcontrol is limited in its own right.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Yes, i2pcontrol has severe limitations
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** So, unless that entire spec is worked on, I have nothing more to say on the subject for now.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** (even the proposed version 2)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok, so we'll learn from the mistakes of others and try not to make our own.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** fluffypony: does that makes sense? anyone need a tl;dr?
**\<fluffypony>** yes it does
**\<fluffypony>** tl;dr for the log
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** tl;dr qtoopie is great. We won't be using qtoopie in lib or bundled form because of severe limitations in i2pcontrol. We will be using GUI controls via the kovri API(s).
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** What is important to understand is that I2PControl is intended to create high-level control programs
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** It isn't designed to deal with lower-level configuration that monero might need
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Anything else on 5.?
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** One of the main limitations, in case anyone is wondering, is that i2pcontrol has to serialize everything and send it over the network
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** There's no possiblity of handlers or anything like that too
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** (you have to continuously request updates)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** yes.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok, 8 minutes
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 6. Preparing for pre-alpha release
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** For a simple GUI, that's probably good enough but it doesn't work when you want to integrate kovri with something like monero
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Yay! Nov. 1st pre-alpha will not happen, nooo way. I've been busy this month with non-code work; only recently with more code.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte has been very busy too.
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** :|
**\<fluffypony>** no problemo - let's get it right instead of getting it rushed :)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** EinMByte: realistically, I think we should push the date to Dec. 1st or later.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** It's never going to perfect in my eyes, but...
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** Sure
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** dont' expect more activity from me though
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** You mean ever or temporary?
**\<meeting-bot> \* anonimal** hopes temporary
**\<meeting-bot> [EinMByte]** I mean before december the first
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Ok. I'll set a tentative date for dec. 1st; no later than 33c3.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** (which is not dec. 1st of course)
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** I'll have to adjust the milestone date on github and roadmap etc.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Any other thoughts on 6.?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** This coming month should be far more productive code-wise than in october.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** We'll see what we can knock-out before december.
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 2 minutes to spare
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** Skipping 7. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A unless anyone wants to say something?
**\<meeting-bot> [anonimal]** 8. Any additional meeting items
**\<fluffypony>** nope that's it from my side
**\<fluffypony>** glad to see the refactoring efforts
**\<fluffypony>** will make stuff easier to work on later on
**\<meeting-bot> [iDunk]** head works now, thanks anonimal
**\<PowerFlower>** oberservers can now ask questions?
