monero-site/_posts/2018-05-28-logs-for-the-kovri-pr-meeting-held-on-2018-05-28.md

---
layout: post
title: Overview and Logs for the Kovri PR Meeting Held on 2018-05-28
summary: Discussion of Kovri public relations
tags: [dev diaries, i2p, crypto]
author: selsta / anonimal
---

# Logs  

**\<rehrar>** calling all of the people  
**\<rehrar>** anonimal  
**\<\_4matter>** Here  
**\<Mumuks[m]>** Hey  
**\<Bluecore>** Do the Kovri and i2p devs work together?  
**\<\_4matter>** yo  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Hey  
**\<\_4matter>** o7  
**\<nioc\_>** I am just stalking \_4matter  
**\<\_4matter>** binocular guy ^  
**\<rehrar>** looks like anonimal isn't able to come  
**\<rehrar>** difficult to proceed without him, but we can still see about getting started if people want  
**\<\_4matter>** :( agreed  
**\<\_4matter>** Well I suppose we can start by seeing who's here...  
**\<selsta>** I’m here but I’m a PR noob :P  
**\<\_4matter>** welcome :)  
**\<Wuodan>** I'm here but I don't know what I'm doing and why :P  
**\<rehrar>** I'm here, and that's cool.  
**\<\_4matter>** Yeah, I mean we can just initial talk about Kovri PR and then have a full blown meeting when he's free at a later time/date  
**\<\_4matter>** So, the other day, anonimal brought up PR for Kovri  
**\<anonimal>** Here  
**\<rehrar>** WOOHOO!!  
**\<\_4matter>** Ok cool  
**\<anonimal>** Was here at 1pm but realized my calendar is on one of 3 offline devices but not my laptop  
**\<anonimal>** Too much tech, sorry about that.  
**\<\_4matter>** :P  
**\<anonimal>** Great post, \_4matter  
**\<\_4matter>** Thanks.  
**\<anonimal>** I didn't even know xmrhaelan had a taiga thing  
**\<rehrar>** yaeh, he's really killing it actually  
**\<rehrar>** doing a lot of wor  
**\<rehrar>** \*work  
**\<anonimal>** Or, that there was that taiga thing  
**\<\_4matter>** Yeah. I want to make an addition point re: what Monero PR is doing, though.  
**\<anonimal>** JFTR, for any meeting log: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/xmrhaelan-monero-public-relations/  
**\<\_4matter>** While I appreciate the most recent PR effort for Monero, I find that (at least initially) it is overengineered. The initial time/energy/amount of words written, specifically to get the effort off the ground (or at least get some buy-in from the community), has been greater than the initial product that has been generated -- a very basic, and poorly formatted, overview that could have been copied and pasted in 30 minutes.  
**\<\_4matter>** This is my opinion, not gospel.  
**\<\_4matter>** I do not like being critical, but taking a more simplified approach, at least in the beginning, is (to me) the right way. Then, from there, we can refine it and build upon our successes -- while learning from our failures.  
**\<anonimal>** What would you consider the overengineered part?  
**\<anonimal>** Yeah, I think I see what you mean \_4matter  
**\<rehrar>** either way, let's hop into Kovri PR? :)  
**\<\_4matter>** Sure. :)  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: how do you wish to proceed? By creating a separate kovri PR team or by being involved in the monero PR taiga team?  
**\<gethh>** by hiring some VergeFAM :D  
**\<\_4matter>** Given that messaging will be different: separate. But, there should be some cross-staffing  
**\<rehrar>** so am I correct in that 4matter is steering this effort?  
**\<rehrar>** if so, whatever is needed from me, let me know  
**\<\_4matter>** I would be happy to.  
**\<\_4matter>** Awesome!  
**\<\_4matter>** Communication is a tough thing to get right. It's best to keep it simple, especially with Kovri.  
**\<anonimal>** gethh: we need more double spends though  
**\<\_4matter>** So that's why I made my post today.  
**\<\_4matter>** I  believe that it would be a nice (initial) structure to have...and build off of as we learn  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, so what plan do you propose \_4matter  
**\<\_4matter>** Next step would be to think about the post and think about the three questions: What is/are Kovri's audience(s)? For each audience, what does Kovri want to communicate at this point in time? How/where does Kovri communicate with each audience?  
**\<rehrar>** I propose a new kovri logo in time for the alpha release, but I'm biased. :P  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: we'll create a new/separate taiga thing just for kovri then and answer those questions there?  
**\<\_4matter>** Yes...then after that...we can go after the three points below them (found in the post)  
**\<anonimal>** And speaking of PR, suggestions of what to change my twitter handle too. I can't even remember my fingerprint from time to time.  
**\<\_4matter>** rehrar...i'm sure would folks would like to work on that for sure :P  
**\<Wuodan>** it took me forever to find out that kovri exists. I propose mentioning kovri on wikipedia and i2pd homepage.  
**\<\_4matter>** hmmmm...good q anonimal  
**\<rehrar>** ... \_4matter that's what I do for a living ;)  
**\<\_4matter>** :)  
**\<rehrar>** @anonimalthebabonimal  
**\<anonimal>** lol  
**\<Wuodan>** at this stage, the project might want to attract technical people .. who check code, post issues and fix bus  
**\<Wuodan>** bugs  
**\<anonimal>** We should add Wuodan's suggestion to the taiga list too  
**\<anonimal>** \*suggestions  
**\<\_4matter>** Exactly, Wuodan: they will be a target audience  
**\<\_4matter>** Got it anonimal  
**\<rehrar>** I'm assuming you're making and/or will make the Taiga \_4matter?  
**\<rehrar>** (what do we think of the platform btw? useful?)  
**\<\_4matter>** Yes sir :P  
**\<\_4matter>** yeah, i like it  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: you have kovri admin privs on taiga right? You can add him to the team?  
**\<rehrar>** lemme check  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: I also have a logo idea incorporating what you showed me recently  
**\<rehrar>** anonimal: let's discuss it  
**\<rehrar>** anonimal I do not have said privileges  
**\<rehrar>** you screamed you didn't trust me since I embezzled from kovri and that you'd end my career and didn't give me privileges  
**\<rehrar>** or something like that  
**\<anonimal>** Well you did have that 20 years in prison for hacking the planet...  
**\<rehrar>** https://keyringcreative.com/kovrilogo.html for those interested in logo discussion  
**\<anonimal>** Are you doing this in https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/anonimal-the-kovri-project-general/ ?  
**\<rehrar>** the planet is just a machine  
**\<rehrar>** that's where I'm looking, yeah  
**\<selsta>** +1 for the new logo  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: I hope to keep discussion to a minimum regarding logo. We can't have what happened last time.  
**\<rehrar>** ah, ok  
**\<rehrar>** sorry. That link actually gives you a virus. Don't go there.  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: how do I add privs to this taiga?  
**\<rehrar>** Settings I think  
**\<anonimal>** Settings?!? What kind of software is this?!  
**\<rehrar>** Settings > Members  
**\<rehrar>** toggle 'Admin' to 'Yes'  
**\<rehrar>** Oh no, just checked on a project I own. It's Admin > Members  
**\<rehrar>** The gear at the bottom left  
**\<anonimal>** Done  
**\<rehrar>** plz gif email 4matter  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: %  
**\<rehrar>** or are you "RF" in Taiga?  
**\<\_4matter>** Yeah i've been having a hard time logging in just now...lol. Give me a sec.  
**\<rehrar>** done  
**\<rehrar>** I put you as a stakeholder  
**\<\_4matter>** cool. thanks  
**\<anonimal>** .invest  
**\<\_4matter>** Got the e-mail...awesome.  
**\<rehrar>** 4matter is on the kovri board of directors  
**\<\_4matter>** lol  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, so while \_4matter is getting setup, what else?  
**\<rehrar>** Defcon meeting tomorrow  
**\<rehrar>** Kovri defcon, sorry  
**\<rehrar>** if we schedule a meeting for every hour, we can have the illusion of getting stuff done  
**\<anonimal>** Meeting in 15 minutes to set our next meeting in 1.25 hours  
**\<anonimal>** j/k  
**\<\_4matter>** lol  
**\<\_4matter>** btw, i'm all set up. thanks guys.  
**\<anonimal>** Alright, maybe I should start answering these questions  
**\<rehrar>** oooh an anonimal q&a  
**\<rehrar>** 1. What is your favorite soda?  
**\<anonimal>** That may be too personal  
**\<rehrar>** That's the only thing I so wanted to know.  
**\<anonimal>** hah  
**\<anonimal>** "What is/are Kovri's audience(s)?" <-- people who use computers and want anonymity?  
**\<moneromooo>** and want to preserve their privacy/security.  
**\<anonimal>** ^  
**\<\_4matter>** yes, but broken down a bit. (1) Researcher; (2) Privacy-advocates; (3) Tech geeks; (4) noobs...not in those terms, but you get the idea  
**\<\_4matter>** maybe 3 audiences to start?  
**\<anonimal>** Yeah, it would be easier to say "library for developers" at this point but one foot is in that trench and another is in user-land so it's not entirely accurate.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** What about project designers as audience? Like, for adding as an API to an existing app?  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Ah, nm.  
**\<\_4matter>** (1) Researchers (people who want to dig into the project); (2) Builders (people who want to leverage Kovri); Everyone else -- general messaging  
**\<\_4matter>** (thinking aloud)  
**\<anonimal>** At this point, we can rule out the "hey download this new app" approach. I like what @sean was saying though.  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: yeah that seems accurate  
**\<kim0>** (4): People living under repressive regimes  
**\<\_4matter>** We can always fine tune this stuff, obvi  
**\<\_4matter>** lol true kim0  
**\<gethh>** (5) ppl serious about tax evasion  
**\<\_4matter>** "For each audience, what does Kovri want to communicate at this point in time?" <------ Maybe we can get the Monero community engaged to answer these questions when we figure out the specific audiences?  
**\<anonimal>** In a sense, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, consider that Tor's audience is essentially the same though we can definitely attract the very large c++ crowd out there.  
**\<anonimal>** I like that question  
**\<\_4matter>** Agreed re point above anonimal  
**\<\_4matter>** We can take what the community gives us and massage it a bit  
**\<\_4matter>** And for the third question, it is basically answered below (in my post): "How/where does Kovri communicate with each audience?"  
**\<\_4matter>** The person in charge of a specific audience will take the message and share it with the audience. This can be done (dependent on the audience) via e-mail, phone/video conference, appearances on podcasts, meetups, or conferences.  
**\<anonimal>** "How/where does Kovri communicate with each audience?" <-- geez, I think we're just doing a website, door-to-door, rehrar has done a lot of outreach too  
**\<rehrar>** my outreach work has been vast and varied, but focused and elegant  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar the ballerina  
**\<\_4matter>** hahahaha  
**\<endogenic>** lol  
**\<anonimal>** Or the sports car  
**\<rehrar>** speaking of, I've spent the past million freaking hours reimplementing the multilingual implementation of the getmonero website. It makes it easier for translators.  
**\<rehrar>** I will be starting the same on kovri site today  
**\<anonimal>** Cool  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: are you jotting all this down into taiga as we discuss?  
**\<anonimal>** (or somewhere)  
**\<\_4matter>** I will be doing back through the discuss and putting the notes up after :)  
**\<\_4matter>** yes  
**\<anonimal>** k  
**\<\_4matter>** doing = going  
**\<anonimal>** I want to give solid answers, I don't feel that I am right now.  
**\<\_4matter>** That's fine  
**\<\_4matter>** We don't need the answers right now.  
**\<\_4matter>** :P  
**\<rehrar>** just warm up our brains to think about the right questions  
**\<anonimal>** I'm not sure how to glamourize a library in order to answer the first question  
**\<\_4matter>** exactly  
**\<anonimal>** It doesn't have an ICO so wtf use does it have  
**\<\_4matter>** lol  
**\<rehrar>** "We're turning kovri into a privacy platform on which other people can build privacy platforms that enable privacy"  
**\<\_4matter>** ^^^^  
**\<anonimal>** lol  
**\<anonimal>** What more info does everyone need from me?  
**\<\_4matter>** Nothing at this point. Just reflect on the post and when everything if up on Taiga, start digging in.  
**\<anonimal>** Another question: would we respect an audience that has zero technical understanding? Other than 'they heard about bitcoin on t.v.'?  
**\<\_4matter>** Yes :)  
**\<anonimal>** Where is our limitation then? Our boundry, our parameter of who/what to define as an audience?  
**\<rehrar>** I respect the moss for growing, but it still has no brain.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Respect /= priority though.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Some audiences could be worth 1 paragraph, or something.  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, another question: what do we want from our audiences?  
**\<rehrar>** ironically, the people who you have to write the least amount for are the ones we want to spend the majority of our time on  
**\<\_4matter>** Maybe we can consider "audiences" from a higher level, then what we have discussed previously...maybe (1) Beginners/Moms and Dads; (2) People who know enough about tech to be dangerous/appreciate privacy; (3) and Tech savvy/privacy-oriented folks  
**\<\_4matter>** We want our audiences to become interested in what Kovri is building.  
**\<anonimal>** But what does that translate to? Do we want their money? Do we want their time?  
**\<\_4matter>** We want their attention.  
**\<\_4matter>** :)  
**\<anonimal>** Then flash a pair of \*\*\*\*  
**\<endogenic>** beginners are probably not super important at this stage  
**\<endogenic>** seems you want integrators  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Decision power is the best metric. Whose decisions weigh the most for mass adoption, beneficial attitude, etc.?  
**\<endogenic>** just an impression  
**\<\_4matter>** For (1) = learn to appreciate privacy more; (2) = start learning about Kovri; (3) = help out  
**\<\_4matter>** exactly endo  
**\<\_4matter>** the 1, 2, 3 and refer to the groups mentioned above  
**\<\_4matter>** in order of importance....right now...it's group 3, 2, and then 1  
**\<anonimal>** @sean: how would you define decision power and who would have that power?  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** It depends on the adoption plan. If devs/integrators won't adopt until more security vetting is done, then focus on researchers and auditors.  
**\<anonimal>** Ah, that kind of decision power. Ok.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** If devs/integrators follow what the public is talking about, then focus on mass appeal.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Or, just go directly after the devs/integrators.  
**\<\_4matter>** (3) = people who help the project; (2) = people who then integrate; (1) = people who use  
**\<\_4matter>** those numbers refer to the "group"  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, can I say something along the lines of this meeting; something that I'll have to repeat many times as we move along?  
**\<\_4matter>** yes sir  
**\<rehrar>** ye  
**\<anonimal>** In terms of usage, interest, and development; generally speaking, I currently see the anonymity space as still young even though it's getting closer to almost 2 decades old.  
**\<anonimal>** I see the anonymity space / development as more of bitcoin / the other coins were ca. 2011/2012.  
**\<anonimal>** If everyone on the internet relies on a single anonymity system for all their anonymity, that is the equivalent of relying on a single digital currency ca. 2011/2012.  
**\<\_4matter>** true. more people are waking up to the importance of anonymity and privacy, which is good timing for kovri  
**\<anonimal>** Yes, Tor is more vetted than the coins were at that point, but relying on a centralized structure of anonymity for decentralization is an oxymoron.  
**\<anonimal>** Or more accurately, not an oxymoron, but just moronical.  
**\<\_4matter>** exactly  
**\<anonimal>** Just a few thoughts.  
**\<anonimal>** To take with us as we move forward.  
**\<\_4matter>** well said  
**\<anonimal>** If snowden couldn't wake the sheeple, I don't know what the next course of action would.  
**\<anonimal>** \*could  
**\<rehrar>** it's very evident by the fact that even talking about privacy in a sense that goes beyond normal (ie. sharing all your data with facebook) is met with "stop being a conspiracy theorist"  
**\<anonimal>** That and "I have nothing to hide". But even when countered with "it's not just about you", that goes over their head in my experience.  
**\<rehrar>** "I have nothing to hide" implies that privacy should have to be justified rather than privacy being the default with justification needed for violating it  
**\<anonimal>** So, if we market, then we'll need to market a need. That's kind of been done though; the need for privacy. For "journalists and whistleblowers" etc. I feel like we'll be beating a dead horse?  
**\<anonimal>** Yes rehrar exactly  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** My thoughts are that the fear-of-anonymity attitude is only for people who don't have much power though. Decision makers do understand the problem more thoroughly and don't need to be convinced as much.  
**\<endogenic>** once you have a few companies integrating, they'll be incentivized to contribute and keep kovri alive  
**\<\_4matter>** feedback loop ^  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** If there is a need to gain mass appeal then, yes, you're going against a highly politicized zeitgeist.  
**\<rehrar>** Decision makers utilize propaganda to keep the people with no power out of power  
**\<endogenic>** you can probably even charge a fee to consult for them on integration and optimization  
**\<rehrar>** utilizing things like privacy infraction  
**\<gethh>** IRS equivalent of where I live recently announced that they will require banks to provide ip addresses of on-line banking users with the addition to wire details , so I think people will feel the need for privacy tools  
**\<endogenic>** yeah lol  
**\<anonimal>** gethh: yikes, wth  
**\<rehrar>** gethh: I doubt it will push many toward privacy tools, sadly. Most will accept it and move on. Maybe complain a bit, but then do it.  
**\<moneromooo>** Most will just not know.  
**\<endogenic>** i guess one question i have is what is kovri really suited for. it's not suited for something like Signal.  
**\<rehrar>** ^ this is more true  
**\<endogenic>** if i'm up to date  
**\<anonimal>** "highly politicized zeitgeist" <-- @sean, yep, I don't hear those words enough  
**\<\_4matter>** anonimal: with regard to journalists and whistleblowers...i dont think it will be beating a dead horse...it's about engaging them about the solution(s) kovri is providing and how it might be useful...journalists and whistleblowers tend to be interested in new ideas, esp in this space  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: ok  
**\<endogenic>** \_4matter: unless someone builds a tool for whistleblowers that uses kovri  
**\<\_4matter>** ^  
**\<gethh>** well i do not want those pigs to know where I am , and believe me whole fucking society literally everybody hates taxes  
**\<moneromooo>** The thing is, when your privacy is violated, you're not aware of it. Not like your freedom, or your health.  
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: yes, which brings us to what the software technically is versus what it does for people - which in turn should affect marketing  
**\<moneromooo>** Most people will shy at their nudity being invaded, but even that you don't get to know if it's a camera seeing you.  
**\<moneromooo>** Yet, when they know of a particular instance, that's when people take notice. If not a particular instance, it's more abstract, and liable to being ignored.  
**\<endogenic>** i say if you just start building stuff that people simply can't build with anything aside from kovri you'll start getting attention easily  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** For mass appeal, there are a number of ways to promote privacy, usually the best is anti-patterns. "You don't want the Russians seeing what your political discussion are about, do you?"  
**\<endogenic>** agreed, sean  
**\<anonimal>** Good points moo.  
**\<gethh>** make a korvi like a chrome extension, incognito fucking ++  
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: that could lead to forking and clones though, if I'm reading that correctly. Not necessarily bad nor good but does sound like a strategy.  
**\<gethh>** the korvi sorry :)  
**\<rehrar>** ew chrome  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: not sure i follow  
**\<\_4matter>** endogenic...i agree with that point 100%  
**\<anonimal>** moneromooo: how could that be alleviated? How could they be made more aware?  
**\<moneromooo>** In some way, the only way people as a whole might take notice ie when some breach that's large enough touches pretty much everyone in ways that does make them uncomfortable.  
**\<moneromooo>** Basically, it needs to become much worse before people realize they ought to row back.  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: ppl need to see a result to confirm b/c they tend not to notice the causes as they happen  
**\<endogenic>** if that helps any..  
**\<endogenic>** same thing as moo is saying  
**\<anonimal>** So as long as they are glued to their television and facebook feed and movie screen, they won't notice  
**\<moneromooo>** Need to post everyone's URL browsing list to wikileaks. And make websites that can lookup.  
**\<moneromooo>** Short of that, most will still not care.  
**\<rehrar>** it's why we're screwed :P  
**\<moneromooo>** Sad isn't it.  
**\<endogenic>** to wake them up they should be told about what kind of cause makes what kind of effect  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** I'm still leaning to the belief that the mass appeal shouldn't be too much of a priority now. These discussions should take place, but only after there has already been adoption and vetting.  
**\<moneromooo>** It's "I don't care about rape, because I've never been raped before" on population level.  
**\<\_4matter>** agreed sean  
**\<rehrar>** that's right sean, but this is a morbid conversation that needs to happen all the same  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** :S  
**\<\_4matter>** lol  
**\<rehrar>** if nothing else but to remember what our society is like and realize the task that is being done here is as thankless as they come  
**\<pwrcycle>** thank you.  
**\<anonimal>** sean had an interesting point about anti-patterns, I believe it's considered a loaded question https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question  
**\<anonimal>** My work here is useless without all of you here.  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: isn't the tech the purpose?  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Yes, anti-patterns are more propaganda than argument. But they work!  
**\<endogenic>** as long as some people can use the tech then imo it's meaningful  
**\<moneromooo>** To some fairly large extent, there's also that kind of police state mentality, where people try to suck up to the police to not get into trouble, and one up each other in sucking up to not seem to be "anti police".  
**\<anonimal>** I'd personally consider an anonymity network of 1 person useless even though it technically has uses.  
**\<endogenic>** but at this stage it's not really possible for consumers to help kovri  
**\<endogenic>** not really important either  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: consumers aren't consuming kovri though  
**\<endogenic>** they're consuming whatever product uses kovri  
**\<endogenic>** even if it's a single entity integrating kovri  
**\<moneromooo>** Though I did not live in a European communist country back then so I can't really tell whether that's really similar, bit it does feel there's some connection. Fear of what others may think and conseqiuences of that.  
**\<anonimal>** moneromooo: ^ 110% I've encountered this with family members who refuse to use signal for just that reason  
**\<rehrar>** geez, I guess I'm fairly lucky then. My family all moved to signal when asked. :)  
**\<endogenic>** seems kind of extreme.  
**\<rehrar>** it's just encryption. It'll be broken tomorrow anyways.  
**\<anonimal>** Well, maybe my point being is reinforcing moo's point: how can that issue be resolved with marketing?  
**\<rehrar>** anonimal: I think we (or any privacy project) lacks the resources and funds for the marketing campaign that would be needed to change public perception  
**\<rehrar>** make no mistake, marketing has radically changed humanity before  
**\<moneromooo>** Yes, made is so much shittier.  
**\<rehrar>** women shave their bodies everywhere now  
**\<endogenic>** everything your family does outside of signal is susceptible  
**\<moneromooo>** Indeed, I constantly encounter bald women now.  
**\<endogenic>** so why would you want to change humanity in a way where they have such extreme privacy?  
**\<endogenic>** only people who need privacy find it useful  
**\<endogenic>** just wasting money otherwise  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** lol moo  
**\<endogenic>** there are tons of privacy conscious folks already in the world  
**\<endogenic>** if there weren't already enough kovri wouldn't exist..  
**\<endogenic>** you advertise to drive leads  
**\<endogenic>** what would you even drive them to?  
**\<anonimal>** From my experience, the current anonymity projects all attract devs but almost all leave after a short period of time. I've see this all across the board.  
**\<anonimal>** A) maybe they are flakey B) anonymity is stupidly hard to develop C) people don't care enough?  
**\<anonimal>** 1. How can this be changed with marketing 2. Can this be changed with marketing?  
**\<rehrar>** Reverse 1 and 2 and them's the right questions  
**\<\_4matter>** ^  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** The best marketing begins with market analysis.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** i.e. *Why* do they leave? A, B, C, or something else?  
**\<rehrar>** FOSS as a whole suffers from this somewhat.  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Some simple research could help on that. i.e. Look for blog posts, tweets, etc. about why people stopped using Tor, etc.  
**\<endogenic>** monero and bitcoin seem to be doing fine  
**\<rehrar>** Very little money in circulation to incentivize development, poor UX as a whole (which leads to not many using it). I'm heavily biased, but I think not enough good designers is a big issue in FOSS.  
**\<rehrar>** despite what people may think, to the common person, the UX is the product  
**\<endogenic>** why isn't monero able to be a larger source of contributors?  
**\<endogenic>** how important is kovri to monero?  
**\<anonimal>** Do libs get huge press too? If Tor didn't their browser dev team, the user base could probably shrink significantly to pre-browser levels?  
**\<endogenic>** if kovri is important to monero then the same incentive to work on monero applies to kovri  
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: yes, and good questions  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: sure, they get written up all the time  
**\<anonimal>** I've whined about that in the past  
**\<rehrar>** he has, I've seen it  
**\<endogenic>** there are TONS of eyes on hacker news, slashdot, mailing lists, technical magazines,. ....  
**\<moneromooo>** I tried to get into kovri in the past, but it's hard to get into tbh.  
**\<moneromooo>** I didn't try a second time.  
**\<endogenic>** mooo is your best source of info on this  
**\<endogenic>** or hyc etc  
**\<endogenic>** the info is in front of us  
**\<rehrar>** can you expand on that a bit mooo?  
**\<moneromooo>** Not really. I don't have shining examples. It's just a particularly hard codebase to start hacking on. I hear Monero is too, though I don't think I had nearly as much trouble.  
**\<endogenic>** nah monero isn't hard to start hacking on  
**\<endogenic>** except i dunno maybe setting up your dev env lol  
**\<endogenic>** for some ppl  
**\<moneromooo>** I don't think it is, but I've heard so.  
**\<moneromooo>** Maybe different people have an easier time with different styles.  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, so at least one good starting point: have someone focus on ycombinator, slashdot, mailing lists, technical magazines  
**\<endogenic>** mooo, have you ever had any projects that captured your interest but had odd coding styles?  
**\<endogenic>** or were too complicated or big but you wanted to press on anyway  
**\<moneromooo>** Yes, but not *overly*.  
**\<anonimal>** lol  
**\<\_4matter>** noted anonimal :)  
**\<endogenic>** mm... in those situations, would you say it was something you personally wanted to see implemented that made you go on?  
**\<moneromooo>** There is certainly some of that.  
**\<moneromooo>** I kinda answered the question replacing "odd coding styles" with "hard to get into codebases". Coding style I don't mind that much.  
**\<anonimal>** Who wouldn't love working on 5 different crypto schemes, 2 transport layers, and 9 message types - and still only cover 20% of the codebase?  
**\<endogenic>** mooo: if you could wave a magic wand, what could be done to the codebase to make it more accessible to an experienced C++ coder such as yourself?  
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: over-engineered - but that's kind of where the anonymity space is right now.  
**\<endogenic>** what would be happening in kovri from a code standpoint to make it more exciting to you?  
**\<endogenic>** we want to see monero keep growing so we want to see kovri integrated as soon as possible ..  
**\<endogenic>** so it must mean there's an obstacle  
**\<endogenic>** it just has to be identified correctly  
**\<moneromooo>** tbh I don't have a good answer to that. I also cannot go into much more details for reaons I am not willing to also share (sorry).  
**\<endogenic>** anyway, answer's there  
**\<anonimal>** Complexity versus the interest in tackling the complexity?  
**\<anonimal>** Risk/reward  
**\<moneromooo>** Yes, "lexity versus the interest in tackling the complexity?" is a fair way to put it.  
**\<endogenic>** anonimal: i would say that if there is existing complexity then it's tough to grow the codebase w/o growing the complexity  
**\<endogenic>** so if i were a contributor i would want to see as little complexity as possible  
**\<endogenic>** just my 2 nanonero..  
**\<anonimal>** Yes, you and many others. That's why there are relatively few anonymity developers.  
**\<endogenic>** well the protocol may be complex for newcomers but that's not what i mean  
**\<anonimal>** Fortunately, my goal has been to reduce complexity - or at least try to.  
**\<endogenic>** say the protocol were in a black box  
**\<moneromooo>** Also, kovri seems much more C++y than Monero, and I'm much more of a C coder than a C++ coder. That may have a non trivial influence on my experience.  
**\<endogenic>** mooo i never knew  
**\<moneromooo>** I just don't hate C++ the way many C coders do :)  
**\<moneromooo>** (if kept in check)  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, so technical marketing can be a discussion in its own right.  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: ^  
**\<\_4matter>** got it  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** You'd hate me then moo. I don't even allow "using"! :P  
**\<rehrar>** ok, anything else or we gucci?  
**\<\_4matter>** guuuuuci  
**\<anonimal>** @sean yeah, that's so 20th century  
**\<anonimal>** 3. Any additional meeting items  
**\<anonimal>** \_4matter: did we answer / help answer any of your original questions?  
**\<endogenic>** what about a project to show who is using monero by IP?  
**\<\_4matter>** yes sir  
**\<\_4matter>** :P  
**\<anonimal>** endogenic: could we use netstat and write it in python?  
**\<endogenic>** if we can tease anything out of that info which constitutes an issue to fungibility etc then that's an easy one for the community  
**\<anonimal>** And then blog about it as a monero 0day?  
**\<moneromooo>** I think someone made that some time ago, should be findable on the net and reusable.  
**\<endogenic>** at the end of the day, if that info is not an issue, kovri isn't necessary .. .. but it probably is :)  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** Will there be a "projects using Kovri" page/badge?  
**\<anonimal>** I hope so  
**\<rehrar>** never!  
**\<\_Slack> \<sean>** heh  
**\<anonimal>** Anything else before our extremely short meeting ends?  
**\<endogenic>** how about ...  
**\<anonimal>** lol  
**\<\_4matter>** thanks guys :P  
**\<anonimal>** 4. Confirm next meeting date/time  
**\<endogenic>** forming a company that tries to get other companies who really need strong privacy comms to sign on  
**\<endogenic>** and you can all get paid$$$  
**\<anonimal>** ^  
**\<\_4matter>** ^^  
**\<endogenic>** make it so  
**\<anonimal>** There isn't enough of that, honestly  
**\<anonimal>** imho  
**\<anonimal>** That alone would bring more awareness and adoption, imho  
**\<anonimal>** Should we start scheduling separate / standalone PR meetings or do them during regular dev meetings?  
**\<\_4matter>** Up to you  
**\<rehrar>** I think we should try mushing them together at least once  
**\<rehrar>** so as not to add another day/tiem  
**\<anonimal>** I'd say up to you and rehrar since you'll be spearheading PR  
**\<rehrar>** just add an agenda item  
**\<rehrar>** PR Update  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, I'll add  
**\<\_4matter>** agreed rehrar  
**\<rehrar>** Update / Discussion  
**\<\_4matter>** sounds good :)  
**\<anonimal>** Is dEBRUYNE or someone still doing meeting logging?  
**\<rehrar>** he says he's pretty behind and doesn't know when he'll find the time to catch up  
**\<rehrar>** maybe someone can help him  
**\<rehrar>** someone.....probably me :P  
**\<anonimal>** dEBRUYNE: I appreciate all the work you've done over the years. Thank you for always having been on top of the logging when you had time.  
**\<rehrar>** ^  
**\<anonimal>** rehrar: your plate seems overflowing but I can't stop you.  
**\<rehrar>** I'm drowning, yes  
**\<anonimal>** Ok, well if someone does the logging that would be great. Or if we had a bot doing it, even better  
**\<selsta>** I have a script for log to markdown  
**\<anonimal>** Cool, thanks selsta. Will you PR to monero-site do the logging?  
**\<selsta>** i can PR this meeting, haven’t had time for the old ones  
**\<anonimal>** Awesome  
**\<anonimal>** Thanks everyone. Next PR meeting on June 7th, same time. https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/203